Italian fighters

[bunch]

Was the Ki-61 in combat with the Spitfires ever?  Maybe with Seafires in summer 1945?....According to George Berling the Macchi pilots would turn fight, but the germans would not, but judging by Beurling's comat performance, maybe the Macchi pilots should not have

[agent 009]

Boy, good question. It appeared in New Guinea in 43. I believe it was Clive "killer" Caldwell, ( 27 kills in African desert & pacific ), that tested the Tony.

The Tony had Benz motor & was 1st Japanese fighter to give allied machines competition in the dive. Also 1st near 400 mph Japanese plane. Had overheating problems.

Tony 2 had reinforced wings, but not a success, so went back to tried & tested 1st wing. Wish there were more data on Tony 2.

[gatt]

Bunch,

probably Beurling was talking about early war dogfights against italians flying CR-42 biplanes, G.50, C.200 and Re2001 monoplanes. All these could probably turn with and sometimes outturned Hurricanes and Spitfires.

When C.202 arrived in NA during late 1941 italian pilots discovered that at medium, low altitudes the Macchi was faster than RAF fighters, often armed with 4x20mm and/or with Tropical filters. But probably they could not turn with them.

!

[Gianlupo]

Lol! I just pressed the "reply" button to answer Bunch post, only to discover that you already did it, Gatt! It's the second time you precede me!

I just want to add a couple of things to what you said: italian pilots, particularly in the beginning of the war, loved aerobatics (just watch the aerobatics displays organized by the regime) and turning fighting, maybe still having in mind the WWI aerial engagements. They were trained with particular emphasis in turning combat That's why they preferred nimble fighters, as biplane (and why a biplane, the CR.42 was the most produced italian fighter during wartime) and this preference was strengthen by the air victories achieved in spanish civil war. So, they surely like to engage turning combat, but they quickly learned that it wasn't the best tactic against all enemy planes.

Bye!

P.S. Gatt, hai ricevuto la mia mail?

[gatt]

Right Gian! I didnt want to make my post too much long (and boring)

P.S.: Sì, ho ricevuto l'email. Appena oggi mi hanno aggiustato il PC dell'ufficio dove ho materiale su: CR42, BR20, G50, G55, C200, C202, c205, Re2000, Re2002 ed SM79. Di quasi tutti ho il manuale originale scannerizzato. I file sono di dimensioni notevoli ma se hai un FTP capiente ti posso mandare quello che ti interessa.

[agent 009]

It is true about Italian pilots & acrobatics. One P-40 pilot mentioned the lovely loops a particular pilot did. It had nothing whatsoever to do with combat flying however he said. I then shot him down.

[Angus]

Since the RAF jostled quite a bit with the Italians in the med, I have come across quite some material about it.
Tony Bartley, sqn leader of 111 sqn at Bone airfield told of a C.202 that he couldn't shake, in a long engagement. For some reason the Italian however broke off and tried to leave the party, - Tony caught him on the run and shot him down.
Neville Duke shot down an Italian pilot and met him. The Italian complained about the Germans, - said they were timid to mix it properly.
Will see if I find more.
Anyway, those Italian planes are good looking, and I vote for more into AH!

[68DevilM]

Originally posted by GREENTENERAL
Hi! I'm very new here, just got the game today.

I was wondering about something that I just came across as I was looking at the different fighters that are available.
In the Italian section, where is the Fiat G.55/O Centauro?  
I'm by no means an expert, but I have always been told that it was the best Italian fighter of WWII.  Is this wrong?  I just thought it was kind of strange that the C.202 would be there for it's significance even though it is a bit poopy woopy, yet the Fiat is left out.  

I'm guessing that very few people use the 2 Italian fighters that are offered, and for good reason, unless they are really good for reasons that I am unaware of.

[bunch]

Originally posted by gatt
Bunch,

probably Beurling was talking about early war dogfights against italians flying CR-42 biplanes, G.50, C.200 and Re2001 monoplanes. All these could probably turn with and sometimes outturned Hurricanes and Spitfires.

When C.202 arrived in NA during late 1941 italian pilots discovered that at medium, low altitudes the Macchi was faster than RAF fighters, often armed with 4x20mm and/or with Tropical filters. But probably they could not turn with them.

!

George Beurling was not in the early war, his only combat contact with the Regia Aeronautica was Malta in 1942.

[agent 009]

Pattle had some good bipe fights with Italians.

Germans preferred yo-yo tactics in Desert, (Marseille excepted) & for good reason, even the P-40 could outturn the 109 below 10.000 ft. It paid heavy dividends for them.

Americans did the same in China. The results speak for themselves. Pacific as well
 

I'm sure there were some good Italian pilots, but they did not score particularly well in desert or med. Didn't have great tactics.  

Germans however did. Marseille 151 kills, Bar 45, Schroer had 61 desert kills,  ( including Clive Caldwell ), The point in war is to destroy enemy  as economically as possible. It was not a sport, nothing "fair" about it. Push any advantage you have. No quarter given by either side.

[bunch]

Anyone know how the Italians did in China (In CR 32s) against the Japanese (who were, according to reputation, dedicated dogfighters) monoplane fighters

[Lazerus]

Originally posted by Gianlupo
Lazerus, thanks for the link, I didn't know this site, really nice.

Glad to be able to share it with you. I've had it my favorites for about two years now. I'd gladly give up the Ta152 that we have now for the Re2005. Just for the diversity at least.

[Gianlupo]

Well, it seems this thread is no more on italian planes, but on italian pilots!

Originally posted by agent 009

I'm sure there were some good Italian pilots, but they did not score particularly well in desert or med. Didn't have great tactics.

You can bet there were! There were many good pilots in Italy, but, as you stated, they had poor tactics (mainly, they were trained in outdated tactics) and, in most of the cases, they flew planes with inferior performances: the only italian fighters able to match enemy's planes performances where the C.202 and the Series 5 fighters; and I already said how few they were.
Btw, another thing to keep well in mind: italians were badly outnumbered, during the whole war. In the 1939-1943 (after the Armistice, planes production was almost non-existent) the aeronautical factories in Italy produced about 10000 planes, roughly equivalent to the production of just one month in the U.S.

The truth is that Italy wasn't ready for a war: Mussolini's generals told him they couldn't be ready for a full scale war before 1942 (or maybe it was 1943, now I don't remember very well), but Germans' easy victories in the beginning of the war, and general opinion (and, mind you, it was so not only in Axis countries) that war wouldn't last much longer, urged Mussolini to enter it, just to be able to share with Hitler the benefits of victory (historians report -or maybe it was written in Ciano's diaries, if I'm not wrong- Mussolini said he needed «... a thousand of deads...» to sit at the negotiations!!! That was the value of life at the time).

So, please, talking about italian pilots, always keep in mind the few things above: and remember that they fought valiantly and that there were many good pilots among them. Their enemies admitted it, even a fellow like Beurling, though in his original way.

Ok, enough for nationalism (I fear I rushed a little beyond a quiet chat: my apologies, but I'm still afraid that many people have a wrong perception of italian soldiers), let's go to the CR.32 matter

Originally posted by Bunch

Anyone know how the Italians did in China (In CR 32s) against the Japanese (who were, according to reputation, dedicated dogfighters) monoplane fighters

Bunch, If you mean how italian pilots did in China, well, no italian pilots fought there (as always, as far as I know). The chinese nationalist government ordered a number of 16-24 (number varies with sources) pre-series CR.32 Freccia, armed with two 7.7 mm Vickers mg; first nine were delivered in 1935, and equipped a flight at Nanchang.
However, the order wasn't fulfilled: the italian propaganda said it was because of american pressures to sell the Curtiss P 40, but it seems that chineses didn't like the complex logistics needed to make the Freccia fly (the engine was fueled by 94-octanes benzine, obtained adding to normal benzine a 23% of alcohol and a 22& of benzol - at least, that's what I found written... I'm a lawyer not an engineer! And I hope I translated well those technical terms from italian)
As for their performance against the japaneses, in May 1936 only 6 CR.32 were still operational, and, again, italian sources say they did well against japanese fighters in Shangai in August 1937, while engish sources say that they didn't shine in combat: I can't tell you where the truth is.

Ok, guys, I was TOOOOO long this time, even for my standards! I hope I didn't bore you
Bye!

P.S. Gatt, questa volta ti ho battuto sul tempo! Ma sono stato troppo lungo!
Lazerus, I hope to see the Sagittario in AH soon, too! Have good flights!

[agent 009]

Some Italians fought in Russia no? Italian Planes did.

Yes indeed they were outnumbered, & hot kites they had were small in number.

Mick Mannock of ww1 said; Stunt flying never shot down an airplane. Richthofen felt same way, said he never once did a loop.

26 is official highscore for an Italian pilot, but as we know there could be a higher score. I have heard that war records were disposed of by Italy after war.

US pilot Tex wade had over 40 kills recorded in his logbook.  He flew for RAF. Pattle had over 50.

[Angus]

Pattle ranks as the No1 ace of the Western Allies AFAIK.
15 kills therefrom in a Bipe
Anyway, stunt flying could get you out of harm's way.
BTW, Richtofen shot down the British Ace Lanoe Hawker after a long circling dogfight from high to the deck. So at least he knew something.
Lothar Von Richthofen was told to be much tougher, and completely agressive, - Manfred once said "My Brother is a Butcher"
Got a Picture of them brothers in an old German book. Will scan one day and upload.