Author Topic: Vancouver Tries Free Heroin Program  (Read 3816 times)

Offline Siaf__csf

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« Reply #135 on: March 16, 2005, 12:49:21 PM »
Skydancer I'm sure you realize those are all only excuses. They fall right in the category 'can't handle life'.

I've seen my share of bad times when I was so poor I could hardly eat. I had to beg money from social services just to get by. Was alone, living in a crappy appartment. There were times when I wanted to end it all.

I didn't. Now I live in a 2-story house with my family (2 kids) and run a business..

All this happened quite fast, in about 5 years after doing some time hard physical work such as janitoring (including cleaning), delivering adverts for little to no pay, working as a security guard, industrial cleaner, industrial serviceman, warehouse grunt, supply buyer etc. At times I worked 32-hour shifts. Cleaned porta-toilets in festivals.

I used to crawl inside reactors (not nuclear excluding the measuring devices.) Oil harbours, chemical factories (boy they had some nice stuff there.) The worst job I did so far was probably cleaning up the waste cellar of a glass factory. The amount of glass spikes in that place are beyond description and they're all razor sharp. Touch any place and they go right through your double heavy-duty rubber gloves. The spikes penetrated the thick bottom of rubber boots and entered the foot. If you tried to remove them, the glass just snapped and left the piece inside the skin.

So I didn't get things on a golden spoon if that's what you think.

Nash I can't see any reason why the approach wouldn't work on anyone. Can you think any compelling reason not to say 'NO' before you're already addicted?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2005, 12:53:19 PM by Siaf__csf »

Offline Skydancer

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« Reply #136 on: March 16, 2005, 12:52:47 PM »
You make a lot of value judgements based on your own experiences. But everyone aint like you and that don't neccessarily make them worse or less worthy.

Offline Siaf__csf

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« Reply #137 on: March 16, 2005, 12:56:00 PM »
That's right Skydancer.. I can only value things through my own experience.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #138 on: March 16, 2005, 01:30:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Nash I can't see any reason why the approach wouldn't work on anyone.


You can't see any reason...

Quote
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Nash I can't see any reason why the approach wouldn't work on anyone.


I can't see any reason why my stove would just up and die, but that doesn't mean that it's not broken.

Quote
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Nash I can't see any reason why the approach wouldn't work on anyone.


Every addict knows the "just say no" approach, yet says yes. Your approach is broken.

Quote
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Nash I can't see any reason why the approach wouldn't work on anyone.


A lot of professionals who devote their lives to the matter can probably see a few.

Quote
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Nash I can't see any reason why the approach wouldn't work on anyone.


It is one thing to wonder, doubt, or have an opinion... and another thing entirely to preach that which you have little personal understanding of.

Offline Siaf__csf

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« Reply #139 on: March 16, 2005, 01:32:10 PM »
Quote

I can't see any reason why my stove would just up and die, but that doesn't mean that it's not broken.


Most likely your stove is functioning perfectly, it's just short on power. The switchbox.. ;)

Quote
Every addict knows the "just say no" approach, yet says yes. Your approach is broken.


I'm sure you'll provide me with a better approach now. Does that include drug usage?

Offline Nash

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« Reply #140 on: March 16, 2005, 02:05:36 PM »
I don't have a better approach, unfortunately. Keep 'em illegal, help those in trouble, and for heaven's sakes don't give them away. Other than that....?

I gotta wonder if drugs weren't put on this earth for a reason. To help some people exit life sooner, and help others to finally enter it.

Who knows...

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #141 on: March 16, 2005, 02:26:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skydancer
You make a lot of value judgements based on your own experiences. But everyone aint like you and that don't neccessarily make them worse or less worthy.


FWIW, EVERYONE makes judgements based on their experiances. There is really no other way.

Let me explain. You hear your parents tell you not to do something and you test it anyhow. Eventually you do this enough to get the idea in your head that the experiances of others are a good basis to believe them. Then the next time you are told don't do something or something bad will happen and you believe it. You choose not to do it based on your PRIOR experiance that the information was good. Eventually you gain the ability to analyse situations for yourself and extrapolate an outcome based on information alone. Kids lack this ability in the early years.

Some folks never learn to do this and they can only learn through their own physical experiance.
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #142 on: March 16, 2005, 02:39:31 PM »
yep nash... I gotta stay busy.   Better to take cars and guns apart than my life.  I somtimes think the government would rather I do drugs than have hobbies tho.

You are fairly new to recovery and as such you see a lot of pink cloud stuff.... and why not?  so many things we missed due to the drugs... like seeing it all again for the first time.   Unfortuantely that doesn't last and the mundane creeps back in.   Having lots of hobbies and, like you, I read everything and.... well... we do have our brreakfasts together to cheer us..

I have no idea of how I started... I thought I was immune.  I was the only kid who could drink a half a quart of whiskey at 14 and still function.... Hell... I was "good" at drinking.  If someone around me tried something I did too... And I allways did more than everyone else..  LSD?  what do you mean you split it three ways?  Give me 5 hits you wimps!

you could I suppose have special camps for addicts or, simply kill the ones who were caught more than once.   The reality is that you would only be making a mistake (in executing them) in about 2-10% of the cases.  the other 90% or so you would be putting out of their misery.   That 10% figure is a little high for me to endorse the death penalty tho.

It is not uncommon for the drug community to execute it's own.

lazs

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #143 on: March 16, 2005, 02:45:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skydancer
It works until your life takes a serious downturn, or you never got a decent chance in the first place.

If your lucky enough never to have faced that then maybe. but most people in modern soc teeter on the edge at some point, and an awful lot are born into real sh*t.




What a crock of ****.  I know people whose lives make Nash's look like a teddybear picnic and they were never stupid enough to stick a needle in arm...especially not over some girl.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #144 on: March 16, 2005, 02:52:35 PM »
on that same note... soon after I quit..  my brother died and I lost my job and my second wife divorced me all in the same year.... allong with a medical death sentance that turned out to be exagerrated.  all in the same year.

The point being that ...  you have to convince yourself that there is no problem that you can possibly have that will improve if you start using again.

or, as other addicts so succinctly put it... don't use even if your bellybutton is falling off.

lazs

Offline TexMurphy

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« Reply #145 on: March 17, 2005, 01:48:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
tex.. I do not believe that nash or I could be of much help to addicts who are currently using and have no real desire to stop.

lazs


I didnt mean help addicts... I ment help prevent kids (and adults) from trying drugs...

Proactive not reactive work is what guys like you and nash could do....

Tex

Offline Nash

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« Reply #146 on: March 17, 2005, 01:57:43 AM »
On the days when I showed up for highschool and we got whisked into an auditorium to hear someone speak about this stuff.... it didn't mean a thing to me.

Mighta helped someone else though... but personally, I have my doubts about that.

I really do think that you are on a collision course with this stuff from miles and miles back...

By the time yer talkin' to highschool kids... it is just too late. We already knew better than those chumps.

That being said... There was stuff I learned in rehab that I could not BELIEVE didn't get taught in highschool.

Offline TexMurphy

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« Reply #147 on: March 17, 2005, 02:52:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
On the days when I showed up for highschool and we got whisked into an auditorium to hear someone speak about this stuff.... it didn't mean a thing to me.

Mighta helped someone else though... but personally, I have my doubts about that.

I really do think that you are on a collision course with this stuff from miles and miles back...

By the time yer talkin' to highschool kids... it is just too late. We already knew better than those chumps.

That being said... There was stuff I learned in rehab that I could not BELIEVE didn't get taught in highschool.


Actually I think highschool is quite late.

Now Im not only talkin drugs but basicly all kinds of "social information" (sorry for bad wording, swedish after all). Somehow its belived that its first in highschool that kids can be talked to about "reality out there". Highschool is too late.

Also just informing isnt enough, the attitude has to be changed. During ones life one has to be "coached" (like the word better then educated) on attitude and not behaviour. Behaviour is the result of attitude. To change behaviour or to affect behaviour one has to coach on the attitude.

Coaching litteraly means "help to self help". When coaching someone you cant do things or change things for the person you coach. What you can do is influence the person to do things him/her self in a certain way.

If you coach on attitude you will see results in the persons (whom you coach) behaviour.

Attitude cant be changed overnight in highschool. Attitude has to be coached from birth by parents and then through school from first grade by teachers, guest teachers and all other adults around the kid. Then in adult life this coaching has to continue from managers, team leaders and what ever senior people you deal with.

The problem is that we today get "educated" in school and not coached. School afterall is not just a place where you learn hard facts, its also a place  where you more then anything get prepared for life (or rather should be).

If you just educate and dont coach you will see alot of kids with the attitude "screw math it sucks", "screw drug propaganda Im above it", "screw everything no one understands me", ect, ect.

When it comes to work life the problem is the same. Managers know next to nothing about coaching and all they do is push their group to achive the results applied to the group by an higher manager. This imho is much of the reason to burnouts today. Instead of focusing on coaching the individual, managers push the group to a goal set by someone else.

The financial goal of a team at work ofcourse has to be achived, just like the education level of a class in school, but if you coach the individuals in the group with focus on attitude and not behaviour you will easily exceed the set results. Plus the individual will be in a much better condition, mentally, as his/hers individual needs get adressed.

With coaching on attitude in schools from early days you guys would make a huge difference. Unfortunatly it doesnt work that way today and that is why you say that listening to others about drugs did nothing for you.

But if you ever get a change to talk to kids about drugs, imho you should take it. When/If you get this remember you cant do much about behaviour of the kids but you can help change the attitude, focus on that.

Tex

Offline mora

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« Reply #148 on: March 17, 2005, 02:57:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
On the days when I showed up for highschool and we got whisked into an auditorium to hear someone speak about this stuff.... it didn't mean a thing to me.


The first time I ever saw 'pot' was right after a similar education class on the 8th grade.  I was shocked as I remembered what was said earlier, but the tough guys were even more excited. That hash was probably some horse**** and the people who smoked it pretend to be high. As they thought it should be like alcohol but stronger they were swinging and falling all over the place.

So I guess the education worked for me. I never did anything except pot much later. The problem with that kind of education is that it backfires right at the moment a person takes the first toke.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #149 on: March 17, 2005, 08:16:41 AM »
tex... I think you are missing the point here.  I not only talked to my daughter and son about drugs... I was a living example of before and after.  It didn no good whatsoever.  I might as well have been the old dufus they have go around to the schools.

mostly... I was just not cool anymore when I quit drugs so far as my daugther and her friends were concerned and... I was old... I wasn't smart like them and didn't really know what it was like to be young according to their way of thinking.  

My son daubled in drugs and never had a problem even tho he was in a fairly popular band and had friends become addicts.

You can't use reason when  it comes to addiction.   I believe it is hardwired in.

lazs