Author Topic: Students Killed in school shooting...  (Read 5372 times)

Offline Toad

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Students Killed in school shooting...
« Reply #195 on: March 25, 2005, 12:17:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Momus--
Toad, misquoting for a joke can be funny, but if you're going to do it to make a serious point it just makes you look lame, ok?

As previously stated, I don't think the US and UK firearm control models stand up to any kind of comparison, and I've never advocated any kind of UK style legislation for the US. But your comparison between automobiles and guns evades the issue of intent, which as far as I am concerned makes it a specious argument, which is all I object to here really.


I clipped your post for brevity; missed the "I" that is the first word, sorry. Otherwise, it is what you said and serves as reference to avoid confusion as to the reply.

Now as to "intent" are you trying to say that it's only important that we control loss of life that is intentional?

I doubt that's what you mean, so what do you mean?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #196 on: March 25, 2005, 12:22:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
HAHAHAHA! It must hurt to be so pathetic. How many murders are done with bolt-action hunting rifles and single/two-barrelled shotguns? Very few indeed. No, it is the handguns that are the problem ... and you know it. You just choose to be ... pathetic.

Yes you are a nutcase if you need guns to fulfil your “lifestyle”.


Is a handgun a gun?

Is a shotgun a gun?

Is a rifle a gun?

I can't help it if you generalize. That's your problem.

Now, I DO happen to need guns to enjoy my lifestyle. I like to hunt pheasants behind Labradors. There are literally millions of "nutcases" like me; I'm happy to be one.

That's only the pheasant hunters too.........
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Offline RTSigma

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« Reply #197 on: March 25, 2005, 12:39:02 AM »
I really just want to point this out.

The kid went ****ing crazy. He had posted in Neo-Nazi forums, hailing Hitler as his role model. His mind was mentally messed up.

Forget about the guns. The kid WANTED to find WEAPONS and KILL people.

He KILLED HIS GRANDPARENTS. The guns did not wake him up in the morning and say "Load us up, and kill people." His evil, twisted, ****ed up mind did!

You think he would have settled with a sword, or a butcher knife? Yes, I think so.  Hell, I bet he would have tried to use a bomb.  Heck! What if he used a car and ran over people! Oh no! Lets ban something!

All you gun-banners and pro-gunners and NRA's can chew on my armpit because you're obviously ignoring the fact that the kid was screwed up in the head and killed people with a gun.

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Offline Fishu

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« Reply #198 on: March 25, 2005, 01:01:38 AM »
Easy availability of guns makes it easier for people to commit crimes like this.
Also nobody pays attention if someone has a gun at his home or so.

and in some cases when a person snaps off momentarily, he can quickly get a gun and shoot someone.
If it'd be a little harder to get a gun, he might've cooled down by the time he would actually find a gun and dropped his thoughts about shooting the other guy.
but now.. they all have guns at their homes and its just a quick trip to get the gun, if they dont already have it with them and pop the guy.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #199 on: March 25, 2005, 01:19:41 AM »
According to Micheal Moore's award winning documentary, "Bowling for Columbine", Canada has easy access to weapons and yet Canada does not have near the gun crime we do.

He went down to the local Wal Mart and bought all the ammo he wanted, as a foreigner.

Therefore easy availability of guns makes no difference.
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Offline bustr

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« Reply #200 on: March 25, 2005, 01:25:17 AM »
RTSigma,

Screwed in the head monsters like this kid are passing by you every day on the roads, walking by you on the street, and in line with you at your local supermarket. One could be living next door to you.

No law will stop them. No banning guns, toothpicks, bats, rocks or cow patties will stop them. And if you are unlucky enough that your number in the lottery of life comes up, you will be just as dead at the hands of one of these monsters as those in Minissota.

Chucking the 2nd amendmant because some foreign Liberals think it will solve our problems is madness. This is the US. By the nature of our society we will see many more of these monsters before we see less. Untill the valuing of morality, good vs. evil is restored as the foundation of our social structure over secularism and moral relativism, Minissota is only one in a long line of these kinds of tragedies that will continue to be played out.

We are reaping the harvest of our great american experiment in 40 years of socialism. Before the great experiment we knew the answer because our society taught us to be self reliant and to face evil where ever it showed it's ugly littel head. Before the great experiment the local people would have stopped him, not cowered and run away. Each one running away was leaving others to die in their place. That shows me how very littel we love each other.
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This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #201 on: March 25, 2005, 01:59:09 AM »
Well, we’re on to page 5! Let’s not lose sight of the original topic, which was of course a school shooting.

I know that more people are killed on the roads than by guns. That’s certainly true here, and I guess it’s true in the US. I read from an unconfirmed source that “Road fatalities in the US have fallen from 52,600 in 1970 to 41,600 in 1999.” Here it went from ~5000 to ~3000 after the introduction of the seat belt law in 1983.

Most people will be fortunate enough never to be injured on the roads, and most people do what they can to avoid it. I had to – oops – I chose to drive to the Malvern hills to go walking on Wednesday – getting in shape for that Ben Nevis hike! I drove more than 200 miles that day, and did not (IMO) endanger myself or anyone else. I could not have got to Malvern and back in the time available if using trains, what with having to walk from the railway station to the beginning of the footpath in addition to the planned hike. So I used my car, and accepted the risk. I’ve never been injured IN a car, so I assess the risk of being injured or killed to be quite small.

However, I would have no problem believing that 50 people had died on our roads that day. But think of the hundreds of millions of vehicle miles being driven on that day, by people in the course of their daily lives and by people functioning in our economy.

But then consider the nutjob gun shootings in the US – two this month at least. The one that is the subject of this thread, and the one outside that Church in Wisconsin. 23 school shootings in the 2003/04 academic year. What these tell us is that every time a nutjob gets his hands on a gun, a lot of people end up dead, and usually the gunman himself.

That’s why I mourn the loss of life on our roads, but try to do my part to minimise it. Seat belts, air bags, better tyres than existed 30 years ago, mandatory wearing of helmets for motorcyclists since 1976, driver awareness and crumple zones in cars are all features that have helped us to cut our death toll on the roads by about half in the last 25 years. We do what we can.

But the fact remains that we cannot function without road transport – we saw what happened when the pumps ran dry in the 2000 fuel blockade. People had no way to get to work/school etc.

But why does an irrational 16 year old kid need to have access to a gun? He doesn’t, and he shouldn’t. And when he or anyone like him does get hold of a gun, in almost every case it’s because he has the sole intention of killing someone – either one person with whom he has a gripe, or as many people as possible, saving the last bullet for himself. These deaths are avoidable and completely unnecessary. These events tell us that not enough is being done to keep guns out of the hands of nutjobs. And that, I believe, is why the “antis” are so alarmed about the number of guns in circulation. Because in their view, the law abiding gun owning public cannot be trusted to take sufficient precautions to secure their weapons from the hands of nutjobs, when not in use. You may agree or disagree, but the facts speak for themselves.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #202 on: March 25, 2005, 02:19:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
However, I would have no problem believing that 50 people had died on our roads that day. But think of the hundreds of millions of vehicle miles being driven on that day, by people in the course of their daily lives and by people functioning in our economy.


How many Americans do you figure shot guns at gophers or beer cans that day and did no harm to humanity?
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Offline Siaf__csf

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« Reply #203 on: March 25, 2005, 02:32:17 AM »
How big an impact on daily economy do people shooting cans make Holden.

Comparing ants to elefants there.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #204 on: March 25, 2005, 02:38:49 AM »
So you believe that sport shooting industry ammo sales pale in comparison to the people shooting industry ammo sales?

I have a buddy who is a competetive skeet shooter.  He goes thru $10,000 a year in ammo, and he re-loads.

I'd bet 10,000 people or more base thier livelihoods on sport ammo alone.  Add camo clothing and other hunting supplies and you get a huge industry.

Go to  Cabela's and look around their catalog, then tell me how small the hunting and sport shooting industry is.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2005, 05:00:48 AM by Holden McGroin »
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Offline Skydancer

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« Reply #205 on: March 25, 2005, 03:22:15 AM »
The Malverns are realy great aren't they beet1e?

only a half hour from here and great dog walking territory.

( sorry off topic but I think I've had enough of the gun debate for this thread;) :lol )

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #206 on: March 25, 2005, 03:53:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
How many Americans do you figure shot guns at gophers or beer cans that day and did no harm to humanity?
As Siaf says - ants to elephants. But it's beside the point anyway. The point I made was not about legitimate gun owners in pursuit of legitimate pastimes.

My point was about guns being allowed to get into the wrong hands, and rightful owners taking a cavalier attitude with regard to their "inanimate objects" by doing precious little to prevent it.


Off topic

SD, yes the Malverns are great on a nice day. I took a picture. I went over these two humps twice. Wondered if I'd run into any beer cans with shotgun holes in them, but I didn't. ;) Not exactly the Himalayas, but a welcome change from the Chilterns!


Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #207 on: March 25, 2005, 05:08:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
As Siaf says - ants to elephants. But it's beside the point anyway. The point I made was not about legitimate gun owners in pursuit of legitimate pastimes.

My point was about guns being allowed to get into the wrong hands, and rightful owners taking a cavalier attitude with regard to their "inanimate objects" by doing precious little to prevent it.


You attempted to make your point by apparently accepting that 50 or so people died on the roads (I assume) of Britain that day.

I was making a point that you accept the hazards of the legitimate use of the automobile even though some sicko may run down a pedestrian every once in awhile.

I think another thought is why the youth murders in school have been happening in apparent lockstep with using pharmacuticals to control children. This kid was on Prozac.
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Offline beet1e

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« Reply #208 on: March 25, 2005, 07:34:19 AM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
You attempted to make your point by apparently accepting that 50 or so people died on the roads (I assume) of Britain that day.

I was making a point that you accept the hazards of the legitimate use of the automobile even though some sicko may run down a pedestrian every once in awhile.
Yes, and I suspect that a good proportion of those 50 fatalities were avoidable, had the parties involved been exercising due care, just as I believe that most if not all of the US school shootings could be avoided, if legitimate gun owners secured their weapons in a safe or other secure repository, instead of crowing about the "freedom" of not being required to by law.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #209 on: March 25, 2005, 07:44:43 AM »
This kids grandfather broke the law by allowing access to his police issued gun...

The kid broke the law by murdering his grandfather (a police officer), stealing the squad car and driving to school...

The kid broke the law by taking firearms to school, then again by discharging a gun on school grounds, then again by shooting people.
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