Author Topic: Its not bad being a minority  (Read 3092 times)

Offline RTSigma

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« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2005, 12:26:49 AM »
It's a big deal because someone noticed it going on. A lot of people are taken off feeding tubes or life support daily.

After 15 years of being just a body, rising hospital costs, and the idea that your daughter is sitting there in a bed unable to pretty much do any form of basic movement or thought, what would you do?

I can understand the feeling that her parents and family are going through, but that is because they're family. What if she comes to with no memory or possible such a severely damaged brain that she can't function completely?

For 15 years, think about it. That's hospital bed space, staff, supplies, doctor hours, etc. Thats a lot of time and money spent.

Everyone has a right to die, and she didn't leave a will, so no one knows what she wanted? I personally would have wished to be put out of my misery if I were a vegetable.

Suck it up and face it, people die or become nothing but a body.

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Offline Siaf__csf

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« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2005, 12:33:37 AM »
If she still can feel anything, it's the most inhumane way possible to make her starve to death. Basically they're ensuring she'll suffer as long as possible.

Offline RTSigma

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« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2005, 12:40:57 AM »
Yeah, IF. IF she can feel anything, I'm sure her brain would respond to that kind of stimuli to ensure her survival.

What would be humane? Putting cyanide in her system?

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Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2005, 12:41:02 AM »
Ok, I'm entering into this discussion with a certain amount of fear and trembling and with one hand poised to slap myself in the forehead... As always, I am speaking as someone absolutely committed to historic biblically derived ethics. I offer no apologies for that, as Luther said "My conscience is captive to the word of God, here I stand, I can do no other."

I don't know about you, but I have grown tired of listening to discussions of whether this woman should or should not be starved to death based on utility, quality of life, potential outcomes, or even whether or not her husband really loves her. None of these are relevant to whether or not she should be caused to die for as David prayed so well in Psalm 31 "My times are in your hands" If the bible teaches anything at all, it teaches that as creatures created in His image, only God has power over human life and when it is to be ended, and our authority in this area is delegated in the strictest possible sense. If we terminate a life without his sanction we commit murder, pure and simple.

This issue has never been hypothetical to me having personally been confronted with several cases where Euthanasia was counseled or carried out by medical authorities, perhaps the most poignant to me being the case of one of the families in our church with a son who was born prematurely, and as an infant suffered severe brain damage from a hemorrhage. His doctors initially did not think he would live, and advised his parents to "allow him to die." They refused and since that time, for the last 12 years he has been fed through a tube every day of his life.  Through intensive therapy, he has been brought to the point where he can crawl and make rudimentary sounds. However he still requires round the clock care, and barring a miracle will never, ever, be able to take care of himself. Had he not received therapy and constant care, I and his parents have no doubt that today he would be no better off than Terry. The question of course is, should he have been caused to die as well? Is this ultimate decision vested solely in the hands of his parents? Could they change their minds today and stop feeding him? Is it merely that his abilities have been improved at great financial and personal cost that makes him somehow worthy of continuing to live. If he could somehow express a desire to "not live in this incredibly handicapped condition" should his parents stop feeding him?

I will be preaching on this subject and Euthanasia and the culture of death generally this Sunday evening, and to tell the truth I'm still working through the biblical witness on this subject for my sermon. By the time I have completed it, I fully expect that Terry Schiavo will have been starved to death. I am not preaching on this as a matter of politics - I despise political sermons - but because issues of medical ethics particularly one as pressing as Euthanasia need to be understood not via the "shifting sand perspective"of a fickle culture, but from a solid and eternal viewpoint and because Christians have a mandate to " Open your mouth for the speechless, In the cause of all who are appointed to die." (Prov. 31:8)

Anyway, for those who want something more substantive than "I feel this is wrong" or soundbites to chew on, you might want to read this:
 
 I'm not dead yet...
or
This

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline RTSigma

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« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2005, 12:44:37 AM »
God created us in his image and anything he does not sanction is murder? Why were we created and given free thought? Why would he give us the power and the actual idea of thought to inspire euthanasia?

Or better yet, has God said anything about this? Perhaps it is God's will to allow this continue as part of his plan?

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Offline Nash

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« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2005, 12:46:34 AM »
Lets do a quick rehash.

Removing the feeding tube is not "the most inhumane way possible."

People who are terminal but fully aware remove their own proverbial feeding tube every day. Multitudes, everyday. They stop eating, they fade away. It's natural. The only thing unnatural would be to plug a feeding tube into these people's gut.

Nevrmind the people who choose to stop eating, those who are unable to even make that choice have their feeding tubes removed all the time.

"If she can still feel anything..."

She can't feel squat. Her brain has been eaten away. The void that was once filled with brain has been replaced by spinal fluid. Visualize a coconut. There is no brain there.

"Suffering" is almost a subjective term when applied to Schiavo. Tweety and his ilk are suffering more than this woman is remotely capable of.

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2005, 12:54:19 AM »
I would not starve her, But I would have her killed particularly if she had asked for that,  I would not over rule her parents on the issue however.

The people that wrote the bible would have stoned someone who kept a brainless body alive with a machine and a tube. So the "shifting sands of morality" is an interesting take on those who see mercy in some kinds of killing.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2005, 12:54:34 AM »
Seagoon,

Words give us away.

Quote
However he still requires round the clock care, and barring a miracle will never, ever, be able to take care of himself. Had he not received therapy and constant care, I and his parents have no doubt that today he would be no better off than Terry. The question of course is, should he have been caused to die as well?


You tell the story of a premature birth... And despite all odds, and with every technology and therapy at his disposal he now grows to twelve years old, needs around the clock care and will need it for the rest of his life.

In considering the alternative, you say: "caused to die."

That's a very peculiar choice of words.

A lot of people would say, "caused to live."

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2005, 01:00:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by TweetyBird
>>My last dog was not in a coma when I had her put down. I was still a basket case for a few days when I made that decision. I did not make that decision with malice.<<

I have no doubt. It's a lot different with an animal. They don't have logic, they don't understand. They DO have conciousness and may be in pure misery when sick, not only because of pain, but because they feel vulnerable. I'm not certain, but I'm fairly sure an animal's sense of well being is directly influenced by their sense of being up for any task they may be confronted with. If a animal feels wounded, I'm  fairly sure it lives in a state of anxiety.
I think the only thing worse than that would be for the animal to feel it was dieing. I wouldn't have an animal feeling it was dieing over 2 weeks. But here we are doing it to a woman in front of the world and few people care. Barbarism is in now - I'm glad I'm out.


The emotion surrounding this issue is just that emotion.  It is not logic.  

Gracie, (my dog) could feel pain, fear, elation, and could respond to stimuli, arguably to a greater extent than Terri Schiavo can presently.  Yet I still had to choose euthanasia rather than go through an extensive, painful and ultimately questionable life prolonging (but not enhancing) treatment.

My Dad and Uncle had to put emotion aside and choose the logical choice.  

If you are argueing that we should have euthanasia as a medical option in the USA, then I will agree with you.  If you are saying we should keep people alive regardless of the situation, then I would have to disagree.
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Offline Siaf__csf

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« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2005, 01:02:26 AM »
If I had to choose between being killed by starvation and cyanide, I'd take a heavy dose of the latter.

If I had the option to choose between starvation and a leathal dose of opium, it would be even clearer.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2005, 01:07:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by RTSigma
What would be humane? Putting cyanide in her system?


Yes, that would be much more humane.  This starvation thing is insane, I'm pretty sure she has a very low metabolism so that prolly means she will take a while to die.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2005, 01:13:13 AM »
Speaking in general...

Those that want to allow her to pass away would welcome a more humane (for us) option.

Those that want her to be kept alive would never accept a more humane method.

It becomes a situation where the folks that are screaming about the inhumane way she is dying would never allow her to die more humanely.

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2005, 01:55:29 AM »
Hi again Nash,

A few thoughts before I turn in, I probably wont be able to post anything again till Monday, so please don't think I'm ignoring any reply you make.

Quote
Originally posted by Nash
Seagoon,

Words give us away.

You tell the story of a premature birth... And despite all odds, and with every technology and therapy at his disposal he now grows to twelve years old, needs around the clock care and will need it for the rest of his life.

In considering the alternative, you say: "caused to die."

That's a very peculiar choice of words.

A lot of people would say, "caused to live."


You are quite right of course, words do give away our worldview. I will freely admit that I believe that Human life has inherent rather than merely instrumental value and that life is a good and precious gift, and that death is a bad thing, and not something that was intended to be or remain the norm - hence my being called to be about the business of eternal life rather than annihilation or death.

Funny, I too was "caused to live," I don't just mean that in the sense of being brought into existence or regenerated, I mean it literally. My life was saved as an infant only because I was given a long regimen of antibiotics. Had  I been born into an uncaring family, I'd be dead.

Now, what justified that application of antibiotics? The thought that with them I might eventually become a productive   member of society? Ok then, what happens when I eventually cease to be a productive member, and become nothing but a drain, do I lose the right to continue to live? What if my parents could have somehow known that I'd grow up to be a career criminal, would that have justified a decision not to give me the antibiotics that "caused me to live"? The child in my congregation, does his right to be kept alive hinge on being able to make progress? To meet and continue some sort of arbitrary minimum standards for cognition? Do we "cause a newborn to live" only because we hope that while it currently is non-cognitive, and totally dependent we hope that it will eventually meet our minimum standards for life?

Nash, I hope you'll give this article  a read, if only so we can discuss the issue of inherent or instrumental value to life, and the consequences of our decisions in this regard further.


One thing I find interesting. Many are hesitant to plunge straight in to the "Euthanasia good when quality of life unacceptably low" equation, because they see where the mathematics leads and instead cleave to the more popular "Euthansia to end suffering" argument. However in Terry's case, no one is arguing that she is suffering in being kept alive, in fact those arguing for the removal of the feeding tube maintain that she is incapable of really feeling anything. Therefore, the only suffering that is potentially being ended is the "suffering" of her husband, and Euthanasia to end someone elses anguish has an even worse trajectory than the quality of life equation...

BTW - food for thought - I was interested to find that that the term or practice of Euthanasia (a compound Greek word meaning literally "Good Death") didn't show up in any of my commentaries or works on Ethics prior to the second half of the 20th century. It isn't even listed in my Webster's 1913 edition. This is because the term was first coined and widely used by the Nazis in connection with the T4 "Euthanasia" program. Speaking of the T4 program which euthanized mainly senile adults and handicapped or retarded children, it is an interesting historical note that: "Sometimes they were put to death by injection, occasionally by carbon monoxide gas but usually they were killed by starvation."

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"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2005, 02:03:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
in Terry's case, no one is arguing that she is suffering in being kept alive, in fact those arguing for the removal of the feeding tube maintain that she is incapable of really feeling anything. Therefore, the only suffering that is potentially being ended is the "suffering" of her husband, and Euthanasia to end someone elses anguish has an even worse trajectory than the quality of life equation...[/i]

- SEAGOON


We were "euthanizing" horses long before the term was coined.

Looking at a more spiritual facet of the argument, if you deprive someone of the opportunity to enter paradise, with no hope of a relatively normal life here in the meantime, are you showing a hungry man a steak but not letting him eat?  

Is that not a form of cruelty?
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Offline BaDkaRmA158Th

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« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2005, 02:24:00 AM »
This has been happening to people for years guys,nothing new.

Just bush's ploy to turn your eyes away from the war.
The only reason why Fox news and Cnn even cover this.


"look over here...look over here"

Sheep. :rolleyes:
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