Author Topic: U.S. deserter loses refugee claim (Read 1066 times)

NUKE · « **Reply #15 on:** March 27, 2005, 02:13:10 PM »

Drinking on Easter Sunday......wow.

SirLoin · « **Reply #16 on:** March 27, 2005, 02:19:38 PM »

Yep...How'd ya know that?.....

God Save Keith's Ale!

Gh0stFT · « **Reply #17 on:** March 27, 2005, 02:21:09 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SirLoin
No..You sign up expecting that ur Government won't start some illegall war and put good men in harms way...

No question allowed, accept orders above all,
since when are soldiers allowed to have an own mind? lol

OIO · « **Reply #18 on:** March 27, 2005, 02:23:37 PM »

actually this guy has far better moral ground to desert.

From what ive read, he did serve in combat and returned to the US then he deserted before being sent back. In other words, he has a much better point of view than the guy who deserts before he is even sent overseas.

Call him coward or whatever you want. He went overseas once. He has a family. If he dont want to risk his neck after seeing the risks thats his choice in the matter.. and I bet that chances are, had he gone through concientious (sp?) objector he wouldve been turned down and probably jailed... and I dunno about you but if my choices was jail and miss a few years of my kid's life or desert to canada where theres a good chance of receiving asylum and raise his family in canada.... id go north.

Now he's being denied asylum in canada.. it doesnt mean he can apply for it somewhere else does it?

Thrawn · « **Reply #19 on:** March 27, 2005, 02:23:55 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SirLoin
No..You sign up expecting that ur Government won't start some illegall war and put good men in harms way...

Indeed, but when a US soldier deems a war started by the President on approval from Congress to be illegal (or specifically "unconstitutional") they are obligated by their oath to take it the courts of the Judicial branch.

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/faq/oaths.htm

This man did not. He broke his oath and fled the country.

"God Save Keith's Ale!"

Absolutely.

Maverick · « **Reply #20 on:** March 27, 2005, 02:29:20 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by OIO

Now he's being denied asylum in canada.. it doesnt mean he can apply for it somewhere else does it?

He certainly can, I suggest he apply for Iraq.

Thrawn · « **Reply #21 on:** March 27, 2005, 02:33:43 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Gh0stFT
No question allowed, accept orders above all,
since when are soldiers allowed to have an own mind? lol

Wrong, when given an illegal order such as to torture someone, they are legally bound to refuse it.

"893. ART. 93. CRUELTY AND MALTREATMENT
Any person subject to this chapter who is guilty of cruelty toward, or oppression or maltreatment of, any person subject to his orders shall be punished as a court-martial may direct."

http://www.army.mil/references/UCMJ/ucmj2.html#893.%20ART.%2093.%20CRUELTY%20AND%20MALTREATMENT

Thrawn · « **Reply #22 on:** March 27, 2005, 02:35:18 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Maverick
He certainly can, I suggest he apply for Iraq.

Canada and the US have extradition treaties. This guy is a criminal and unless the US plans on executing him I imagine we will ship him back to the US to face courts martial.

OIO · « **Reply #23 on:** March 27, 2005, 02:48:20 PM »

""I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;"

maybe im dense but.. how is iraq threatening the US constitution?

"that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same;"

believe and trust in the constitution..ok....

"and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."

which im sure includes something about being able to disobey orders he considers illegal or immoral.

So he breaks the last part of the oath for whatever reasons he has that he considers his orders to be redeployed are illegal or immoral.... a refusal to obey which you and I both know is likely to be dismissed by a tribunal and hed either be redeployed or jailed if he continues to refuse.

Either way the guy loses big time. Its no wonder he did what he did.

I say let him go. Revoke his citizenship and ban him from entering the US ever again. Easy as that.

Gunslinger · « **Reply #24 on:** March 27, 2005, 03:02:43 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by OIO
""I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;"

maybe im dense but.. how is iraq threatening the US constitution?

"that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same;"

believe and trust in the constitution..ok....

"and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."

which im sure includes something about being able to disobey orders he considers illegal or immoral.

So he breaks the last part of the oath for whatever reasons he has that he considers his orders to be redeployed are illegal or immoral.... a refusal to obey which you and I both know is likely to be dismissed by a tribunal and hed either be redeployed or jailed if he continues to refuse.

Either way the guy loses big time. Its no wonder he did what he did.

I say let him go. Revoke his citizenship and ban him from entering the US ever again. Easy as that.

how's your head.....cause that post flew right over it.

What thrawn is saying is the fact that this is NOT an illegal war (from a US standpoint) because IT was authorized by the president (who has the powers to act alone and send troops into combat for a certain time before congresional approval) but low and behold was approved by CONGRESS itself.

If the soldier, who has the duty to uphold the constitution, thaught his war was illegal (unconstitutional) he also has the duty to fight his orders in the judicial system. NOT desert his post.

YOU CANNOT JUSTIFY DESERTION BASED ON THE PREMISE OF AN ILLEGAL ORDER.

This guy is NOT a CO. Unless he faces the death penalty he does not have fear for wrongfull or unjust prosecution when he returns.........no political asylum is needed.

Mohamed Ali went to JAIL during the prime of his carreer because he did not beleive in veitnam. He could have fled to Canada but he stood up and payed the price for it. That's fighting the system....not running from it OR your obligations.

Raider179 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 27, 2005, 03:16:26 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by OIO
actually this guy has far better moral ground to desert.

From what ive read, he did serve in combat and returned to the US then he deserted before being sent back. In other words, he has a much better point of view than the guy who deserts before he is even sent overseas.

Call him coward or whatever you want. He went overseas once. He has a family. If he dont want to risk his neck after seeing the risks thats his choice in the matter.. and I bet that chances are, had he gone through concientious (sp?) objector he wouldve been turned down and probably jailed... and I dunno about you but if my choices was jail and miss a few years of my kid's life or desert to canada where theres a good chance of receiving asylum and raise his family in canada.... id go north.

This questioning culminated in Jeremy submitting an application to the Army requesting conscientious objector status in August of 2002. Apparently, the Army never received the application, so he resubmitted it on Halloween of 2002. Just over a month later his unit was deployed to Afghanistan in support of Operation Enduring Freedom.

During the deployment, Jeremy was assigned to non combative duties while his application was being processed or transferred from pile to pile. He is now a stellar dishwasher. Eventually the application surfaced and a twenty five minute hearing was held. Jeremy stated that, should he be attacked, he could not always turn the other cheek. Thus, not meeting the Army's criteria for conscientious objector status, his application was denied.

After returning to normal duties with his unit Jeremy was, ironically enough, assigned to be his unit's armorer. In this position, he was responsible for the maintenance, inventory, and administrative aspects regarding his infantry company's weapon systems.

http://www.jeremyhinzman.net/background.html

Straight from his website...He never saw combat...His application was denied. He's a *****.

Thrawn · « **Reply #26 on:** March 27, 2005, 03:23:50 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Gunslinger
What thrawn is saying is the fact that this is NOT an illegal war (from a US standpoint) because IT was authorized by the president (who has the powers to act alone and send troops into combat for a certain time before congresional approval) but low and behold was approved by CONGRESS itself.

Oh I think it was totally an illegal war. I just think that the soldier should have taken it court and did his time or proven his case.

Edit: But I don't want to side track the thread by getting into why.

OIO · « **Reply #27 on:** March 27, 2005, 03:29:09 PM »

"Mohamed Ali went to JAIL during the prime of his carreer because he did not beleive in veitnam. He could have fled to Canada but he stood up and payed the price for it. That's fighting the system....not running from it OR your obligations."

Exactly why I think he did what he did. If he faces up to 'the system' ... he goes to jail. If he 'runs' as you say, he has a good chance of being there with his kid as he grows up, not locked up in prision.

Besides, he DID file for conscientious objector but he was apparently refused by the army brass. So you cant say he didnt just pack up and leave without trying to go through the system.

So what do you expect him to do?

edit: heh someone replied with his website's addy after i had posted it here.

Thrawn · « **Reply #28 on:** March 27, 2005, 03:31:52 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by OIO
So what do you expect him to do?

Refuse his orders, face courts martial, and make his case.

OIO · « **Reply #29 on:** March 27, 2005, 03:43:40 PM »

oh c'mon! you really believe what you just said?

"I just think that the soldier should have taken it court and did his time or proven his case. "

Here's the catch with that: hes been denied already by, as far as I know, is the only way to refuse orders 'legally' (the CO thing)

So, if he takes it to court his chances of proving his case are very slim. And not slim because his reasons are not valid or whatever.. slim because the same court that is hearing his case belongs to the very organization that is quite hostile towards people that go against them (armed forces)..and is the same court that will convict him to jail time. And a court that is backed by a government who really does not want the image of their military affected in a time where the military is 'active' .

He knew hed be facing jail time if he couldn't prove his case.

So what alternative is there? Meekly accept going to jail or desert where he had a good chance of not missing years of his kid's life.

Like I said, he deserted... that means he doesnt want to be in the army for X or Y reason. Punishing him for it is only a waste of resources, especially for a so called volunteer army. Take his citizenship away, ban him from traveling to US & US territories. And let that be that.