Chicken Little

[Howitzer]

Quote: "I just really think that this game is online quake". Not to pick on the poster, but this game is nothing like quake, or CS, or any other shooter. This game is at least two orders of magnitude more complex than any shooter-type online game. The number of variables you have to keep track of regarding your own plane (V speeds, flaps, landing gear, convergence, etc etc) plus the SA of the air environment are way beyond any of the shooters. You don't spend three hours messing with your controller mappings for Quake.

I see where you are going with this, but I tend to disagree.  If you approach the game from a higher level, what you really have is a first person shooter with airplanes.  That is exactly what this game is.  The complexity is added with the airplanes, I agree with that, but the object is a team-based deathmatch, where if you die, you respawn immediately.   Only thing that is really different, is that you have a nice little airplane to carry your boomstick-toting quake guy around in.  I actually like it this way, if I wanted strategy, I would stick with an RTS.

I'm not disagreeing totally, just adding another perspective to it.

[Blue Mako]

Originally posted by crd
Not to pick on the poster, but this game is nothing like quake, or CS, or any other shooter.  This game is at least two orders of magnitude more complex than any shooter-type online game.  The number of variables you have to keep track of regarding your own plane (V speeds, flaps, landing gear, convergence, etc etc) plus the SA of the air environment are way beyond any of the shooters.  You don't spend three hours messing with your controller mappings for Quake.

The gameplay in AH is exactly like an FPS now.  The only difference is that our guns have wings attached.  The time taken to setup your controls is irrelevant, we still have team deathmatch set to a a background of aviation.

[Blue Mako]

Originally posted by Urchin
Think Kweassa's got his finger on it, personally.

I agree Urchin, Kweassa has summed it up nicely.  Pity no-one else seems to see it too.

[Blue Mako]

Originally posted by BigGun
All these ideas sound self-serving to make AH more to the ideal of your perception. I am sure there are plenty of people like it how it is.

I have limited amount of time I can fly, I definately don't want to spend it climbing to 20k...bases further apart or spending time in the tower.

The point is that there are plenty of people who liked it how it used to be as well and would like to see it somewhere between the two.

Balance grasshopper, balance.

[Pongo]

I think the first thread like this started in Feburary 2000 when the game had been pay to play for 2 months, but it may have been the month befor that.
No one has come up with a way to make others play the way you want them to play. Many of the same people have been trying for 5 years now. It seems people prefer to decide how they want to play and HT makes a good living letting every one decide how they will play. The closest that he has gone is the perk system and the perk mulitplier which are pretty good game mechanics I think.

The game is indeed as good as it ever was. All we need is a sorti rate mechanic to make it perfect!

[NoBaddy]

Originally posted by Pongo
I think the first thread like this started in Feburary 2000 when the game had been pay to play for 2 months, but it may have been the month befor that.
 

Hehe, been seeing posts like this since the mid '90's and days of "10,000 Dweebs" in Air Warrior. It's sorta like deja vue all over again...and again..and again.......

BTW, anyone that thinks this game and Quake are fundmentally different....is delusional. The perceived problems being discussed here aren't game problems...they are people problems.

[DipStick]

Originally posted by Blue Mako
I fly non-primetime, there's rarely more than 100 online when I am and that number gets lost in the large maps we have now.

I'm against having an enemy field within sight of a friendly one.

I am sorry but this just doesn't make sense to me.

You say there's only 100 people spread out over a big map when you fly and you want the fields FURTHER apart?

On top of that if you shoot the one guy you find you want him to wait before he can take off?

To me that's completely absurd. I just don't get it, can you explain it?

[Kweassa]

That extrapolation is just dumb. Did I make an absolute statment? Did I claim to pursuade everyone to play my way? Did I claim I should? Did I claim to present the magic bullet? No. I cited a contributing factor. I guess its neither 'big picture' enough of convoluted enough for to admit to.

  No Murdr.  This, is what you call 'dumb';

"The answer isnt changing the game, its changing the player."

 The problem we're facing is the UNCHANGING player. He doesn't want any tips, any education, any training. He wants to fly, and fight (the way he likes) and there's nothing nobody's gonna say about it because it's his freedom to do so.

 ... and you're saying, "this can be solved if we changed the individual player"
 
 So, how many MA 'individuals' are you planning to personally visit, if you were ever bestowed the power to change the MA as you see fit?

 

Some players do care. Some players dont need pursuaded, but just need directions to get where they want to go.

 And you're gonna give them out?

 So how do we change the arena, realistically speaking?

 Every 'vet' should somehow find a guy that 'cares, but needs direction', and grab on to him in the MA and start preaching about which is the 'right' direction and which is not?

 Or, start a campaign in the MA and organize a huge educational rally or something?

 How are you gonna give out the directions to all of the people that need it?


 --NEWSFLASH!!--

 That's where 'system' kicks in Murdr.

Some players will never care. Seperating one group from the other is good for gameplay. I dont know how you could argue otherwise.

 Because both groups are inside the same MA and they don't exactly run around with "I'm a caring/not caring guy" written on their foreheads.

 Besides, some people care sometimes, but don't care othertimes. It's not as if they are white people and black people. People shift and change between attitudes everyday.

 Whatever solution needs to be found, must effect BOTH of the ever-shifting groups on a substantial level and set a firm new standard, and must do so with great efficiencly.

 Otherwise it's not gonna change anything. Just as sending preachers into the MA isn't gonna change anything.

[Blue Mako]

Originally posted by DipStick
I am sorry but this just doesn't make sense to me.

You say there's only 100 people spread out over a big map when you fly and you want the fields FURTHER apart?

On top of that if you shoot the one guy you find you want him to wait before he can take off?

To me that's completely absurd. I just don't get it, can you explain it?

What you fail to understand is that I'm not seeking change just for my own sake.  Unlike others I'm more concerned with the game as a whole, not just my own experience within it.  You may find it hard to believe but I'd rather see an MA that promotes better flying as opposed to quicker fragging.

As I see the game atm, it's biased heavily toward furballing and horde-warring by having closed spaced bases and instant respawn.  That is just a restatement of my first post.  I'd like to see changes back to the older style MA maps that were smaller and had less bases.  These maps tended to promote a different style of play that I feel is better for the majority, not the vocal minority.

Go on making personal attacks and belittling everything being said because it differs from your own opinion.  Obviously this is easier for you than trying to see someone else's point of view.  In the end, this attitude is what is driving people away from the game, not the attitudes of those trying to promote change...

[DipStick]

Originally posted by Blue Mako
What you fail to understand is that I'm not seeking change just for my own sake.  Unlike others I'm more concerned with the game as a whole, not just my own experience within it.  You may find it hard to believe but I'd rather see an MA that promotes better flying as opposed to quicker fragging.

As I see the game atm, it's biased heavily toward furballing and horde-warring by having closed spaced bases and instant respawn.  That is just a restatement of my first post.  I'd like to see changes back to the older style MA maps that were smaller and had less bases.  These maps tended to promote a different style of play that I feel is better for the majority, not the vocal minority.

Go on making personal attacks and belittling everything being said because it differs from your own opinion.  Obviously this is easier for you than trying to see someone else's point of view.  In the end, this attitude is what is driving people away from the game, not the attitudes of those trying to promote change...

Define "better" flying.

I believe if the 'older style' maps were "better" for the majority HT would still be using them, right?

I WAS trying to understand YOUR point of view. That is why I asked you if you could explain it to me.

[Murdr]

Im not speaking in the abstract.  Last week I had at least 2 hours join time with someone riding along in my fighter, that I never heard of or spoke with before I was approached for some help.  During conversation they mentioned managing to land some sorties in a P51 where they could run away from trouble.  This player wanted more options than that, and I tried my best to demonstrate them.  Also the questions I answered (as best I could) from numerous sources in the past week are too many to count.  Somehow this happens without any forehead tatoo's or trainer menu.

I dont claim to be a guru, or a preacher, but Im not too short sighted to see that it yields a better gameplay result than: "read the freaking help file","try alt-f4","go back to the ta and get some 5|
And finally you have quoted the statement you didnt like.  Ill be happy to extend and clearify my remarks.  Im not inherently aginst "changing the game"/"gameplay systems".  In fact your "air forces" thing has some interesting points.  We diverge where you pretty much say you want to mold the MA to your liking.  While I am fine with cultivating a niche of gameplay that I like, and not overly concerned with what everyone else does with their freedom.  Which puts me in agreement with dan/slack/guppy/corky/(whatever new alias there is this week)

[Ack-Ack]

It's not the game that needs to be fixed, it's the community.

And any attempts to limit the choices of players in game will eventually kill any game.  Give the player more options, not less or restrict their options.  No offense, but that Air Force idea is rather silly and would end up driving players away rather than attracting new ones or holding current players.  Not all the options need to be in game.  

You want something that will help impact and improve the quality of the game in AH?  There is a really simple answer to that and that's a formal training program, very similiar to what AW and WB had.  Give people that option and not the ad hoc system we have in place today and players will go to it.  AW and WB has proved that.  And it also helped build up the community and strengthen it.

As it stands, AH really doesn't have a community.  Sure, we post on these message boards but that's really the extent of it.  There is beginning to emerge a community made up of skinners and sound makers but apart from that, the "community" is non-existant.

Anyway, my 2 centavo's worth.  



ack-ack

[Blue Mako]

Originally posted by DipStick
Define "better" flying.

I believe if the 'older style' maps were "better" for the majority HT would still be using them, right?

I WAS trying to understand YOUR point of view. That is why I asked you if you could explain it to me.

I didn't say "better flying", I meant better gameplay.  The ability to perform ACM is not dictated by the map you are flying in.  The choice whether or not to use ACM can be very directly influenced by the map you are in tho.  I personally believe that deliberately placing fields in such a way as to lower transit times between them encourages land grabbing and point-and-click flying style.  Why grab alt to attack a base or enter a furball with the intent of surviving?  Easier just to stay low and die quickly porking-and-augering or plowing into a mess of cons low-E for one or two wuick kills before dieing.  Why?  Because you can re-up instantly and be back where you died within a minute or two.  Why learn to fly smart?  Why learn any ACM?  You don't need to as you'll be right back where you started almost instantly.

The shift towards the larger maps has been done as a matter of necessity.  However, if IRC the maps doubled in size over night.  The Fester map was made with furballing in mind (as Fester is into that style of play) and it seems as if the newer maps have all gone down that route of player creation.  There seems to have been little direct intervention by HT on map development recently (I may be wrong here and probably am).

For me, the change to further spaced fields probably wouldn't mean a reduction in the the frequency of finding fights as the number of possible avenues for advance are reduced.  Less fields over the same front length = less options for attacking = more people at the same place, right?  What I would hope it would accomplish is that people would take the trouble to try and survive a fight longer, or survive the attack on the base.  No more dive-pork-auger-rinse-repeat would be a good thing.  Or do people suddenly think that the suicide dweebs are a great addition to gameplay?  Low altitude carpet/dive bombing by buffs is an enhancement to their gaming experience?

In all honesty Dipstick, would a pause of a minute or less between reups be so frustrating for you that you would cease to play AH?  Or would you simply use the time to visit the hangar and change your loadout?  Or maybe even think about your last sortie and try to work out how you could avoid dieing next time?  That's what gameplay pauses mean to me in other games, would it be so terrible here?

To me, that minute pause in AH would mean the an end to endless vulching, an end to being overrun by cons you'd killed a moment before, an end to many other things I personally find irksome.  I think that for others it would mean other positives too...

Anyways, at least it's good to see you're trying to understand the other side.

 mako

[mussie]

what about a few perks for landing

would give the Pray and Spray  a reason to land

Personally I try to land I find it satisfying to RTB in a b24 with two engines and the left gear out

[DamnedRen]

Originally posted by Blue Mako
For me, the change to further spaced fields probably wouldn't mean a reduction in the the frequency of finding fights as the number of possible avenues for advance are reduced.  Less fields over the same front length = less options for attacking = more people at the same place, right?  What I would hope it would accomplish is that people would take the trouble to try and survive a fight longer, or survive the attack on the base.  No more dive-pork-auger-rinse-repeat would be a good thing.  Or do people suddenly think that the suicide dweebs are a great addition to gameplay?  Low altitude carpet/dive bombing by buffs is an enhancement to their gaming experience?

You might not wanna believe this but there are actually two ways of looking at an issue and both can be positive. Why would a lessor number of fields change anything? You still have X number of people doing exactly what they want to do. Be it low alt carpet bombing or kamakazi bomb/augers or dogfighting. It's all good. Just because you don't wish to do that doesn't mean you can't go shoot them down. does it? And if there's 50 different fields you can take off from who cares if they happen to be hitting one with suicide attacks? I guess that begs the question..."why is one field so important to you?" Is the game gonna end because some guy decides he wants your field and goes after it? So you can think of it negatively or as a positive. I like to think of it as more targets comng into be kilt. And for me, that's a lot of fun. Maybe you don't? I guess that's why each plays the game for their own reasons.

In all honesty Dipstick, would a pause of a minute or less between reups be so frustrating for you that you would cease to play AH?  Or would you simply use the time to visit the hangar and change your loadout?  Or maybe even think about your last sortie and try to work out how you could avoid dieing next time?  That's what gameplay pauses mean to me in other games, would it be so terrible here?

Please explain to me what a pause has to do with game play? Why is pausing going to change someones gameplay? If a guy has a thought in mind that he's just gotta go pork some field and has his loadout and tries and dies and if in his mind he's just gotta get up and do it again that's fine. Right?He already has what he figures is what he needs, right? You forget gaming has changed over the years (hmmm maybe not for some:)) and the Tomb Raider players that died and tried again over and over and over,  ad nauseum  are now playing here. That happens to be thier gameplay style. I kinda like that fact they like being targets too .

To me, that minute pause in AH would mean the an end to endless vulching, an end to being overrun by cons you'd killed a moment before, an end to many other things I personally find irksome.  I think that for others it would mean other positives too...

Perhaps Im wrong but just about the first thing I ever learned was "never take off from a capped field". Another game went so far as to give you a jeep so you could spawn on the end of the runway and look around before grabbin a plane. Maybe that old lesson has been lost to history with the new folks. Then again, as long as us old phuearts are around maybe we can pass that type of info along. In my mind a person can get vulched for only a small number a reasons; He doesn't care if he dies or not. He wants to defend his field even if he has to die doing it , over and over and over, ad naseum (aka tomb raider fans). He didn't know the field was being vulched (shame on him). He was flying and was having so much fun that he forgot to keep track of his gas and now had no choice but to try and get down on a capped field (shame on him again).

The positive side is you plan your loadout, get up and shoot the durty bad guys who are trying to take yer field, plan your fuel load accordingly and have and out when your ready to land them kills. Darn, that can be a whole lot of fun while those other tomb raider type fans are just itching to die all over the place for you! I mean, what more positive thing can you ask for? It's pure heaven out there!!

________________________
Ren
The Damned