Author Topic: Fw190 D-9 2.03 ata  (Read 7593 times)

Offline moot

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« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2005, 01:59:07 AM »
D13 or 152, encountered tempest post-war?
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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2005, 02:11:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by moot
D13 or 152, encountered tempest post-war?


RAF had a German pilot fly Yellow 10, the only surviving D13 against a Tempest.

Pilot quoted in Hermann's book on the 190 D series

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Offline Naudet

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« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2005, 03:30:34 AM »
Yes, i am pretty busy with RL issues currently, but i just want to jump in an give a couple of answers from memory i can write down in 5 mins.

Henning is indeed correct that JUMO213 uses charge mass and not boost for power control. Boost pressure varies because of this with temperature and so on.
But the rough figures for a JUMO213A with 1 : 6,5 compression ration and rated at 1750PS are the following:

Climb & Combat 1620 PS ~ 1,4 ata
Take-off/Emergency 1750 PS ~ 1,5 ata
Increased Emergency 1900 PS ~ 1,7 ata
MW50 injection 2100PS ~ 1,78 ata

I have not picked out all data for the next developement steps of the JUMO from the documents yet, but Junkers went multiple ways to increase power. One was with high quality fuel (C3) by using a higher compression ration of 1 : 8,5, others were just higher boost pressure, than there were also RPM increases or a even combination of ways. Its a complex issue, because some engines don't even got a regular designation.


And to give a quick glance on the MW50 test, Wk.-Nr. 210 002 reached speeds of 570-580 km/h with Erhoehte Notleitung and 590-595km/h at SL using MW50, without ETC504 attached and a puttied and polished surface.
In a later test were a gap between engine and wing was covered, 002 managed 608km/h at SL using MW50.
But all tests were done using underperforming engines, mentioned in both FW and Junkers documents and so they approve Hennings oppion that the engine of 002 was somewhat "bad". He was right, because the first serial production chargers did not reach intended full boost altitude and airflow, according to Junkers reports of benchtests with there JUMO213 engines from the first serial production batch.
And funny to note, comparative test with Wk.-Nr. 210 001 with standard factory surface finish reached the same speeds as 002. FW was a bit curious why the higher quality surface finish of 002 did not show in better performance and were keen to investigate that issue further.

The conclusion of FW was that with engines performing to the published figures and good factory finish a serial production D9 will reach the calculated performance figures.


About D11/D12/D13, those planes were really only around in penny pocket numbers. Maybe ~50 if you take all three together. Problems here were mainly that the JUMO213E/F never got produced in numbers. You can skip them for any comparison of wartime operations. But it should be mentioned that below ~6000m the D9 performs as good or even a tad better than those three, above that alt the two stage three gear of the JUMO213E/F will give them a huge performance advantage over the D9.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2005, 03:35:57 AM by Naudet »

Offline gripen

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« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2005, 04:01:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Naudet

But all tests were done using underperforming engines, mentioned in both FW and Junkers documents and so they approve Hennings oppion that the engine of 002 was somewhat "bad". He was right, because the first serial production chargers did not reach intended full boost altitude and airflow, according to Junkers reports of benchtests with there JUMO213 engines from the first serial production batch.
...

The conclusion of FW was that with engines performing to the published figures and good factory finish a serial production D9 will reach the calculated performance figures.


Do you actually have the evidence that the production Jumo 213A reached intended full boost altitude and airflow during war? At least in the case of the DB 605, the tested planes typically did not reach claimed FTH.

gripen

Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2005, 06:10:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen
Do you actually have the evidence that the production Jumo 213A reached intended full boost altitude and airflow during war? At least in the case of the DB 605, the tested planes typically did not reach claimed FTH.

gripen


Source my dear?
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Offline mw

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« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2005, 06:36:17 AM »
Thanks HoHun and Naudet!  Nice work guys :)

Offline gripen

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« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2005, 07:48:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kurfürst
Source my dear?


All Bf 109G flight tests I have (more than 30 planes tested) vs DB factory data (published in "Suomen Ilmailuhistoriallinen Lehti").

gripen

Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2005, 08:33:40 AM »
You like to speak in absolute extremes. 'All, never, always'.

here`s the finnish curves of MT 215 (109G-2) :

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/715_1118410910_finnishbf109g-2mt215_climb_testat1.3ata.jpg

And the official DB power curves :

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/715_1118410819_db605agraph.jpg

The offical FTH of 5.7km corresponds nicely to the test.

just the usual grinoodleh claim again. :D
« Last Edit: June 10, 2005, 08:45:27 AM by Kurfürst »
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Offline mw

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« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2005, 08:41:52 AM »
Umm, geez - there must be a GL/C-E2 sheet for a 190 D-9?  I don't recall having seen one, that's odd.   At least that would give some reference points....

Offline gripen

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« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2005, 09:11:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kurfürst
You like to speak in absolute extremes. 'All, never, always'.

here`s the finnish curves of MT 215 (109G-2) :

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/715_1118410910_finnishbf109g-2mt215_climb_testat1.3ata.jpg

And the official DB power curves :

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/715_1118410819_db605agraph.jpg

The offical FTH of 5.7km corresponds nicely to the test.


Actually the MT-215 data is a good example if you compare it with the DB factory data. The curves I'm talking about contain static and dynamic MAP as well as how the MAP changes above the FTH.

Quote
Originally posted by Kurfürst
just the usual grinoodleh claim again. :D


Is there a remote possibility that you could discuss without personal attack?

gripen

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2005, 01:34:48 PM »
Hi Naudet,

>But the rough figures for a JUMO213A with 1 : 6,5 compression ration and rated at 1750PS are the following:

>Climb & Combat 1620 PS ~ 1,4 ata
>Take-off/Emergency 1750 PS ~ 1,5 ata
>Increased Emergency 1900 PS ~ 1,7 ata
>MW50 injection 2100PS ~ 1,78 ata

I'd add that on the 006 test sheet, Climb and Combat power (3250 rpm, 1780 PS at sea level) is shown to be achieved at 1.47 ata in low gear and 1.64 ata in high gear.

>One was with high quality fuel (C3) by using a higher compression ration of 1 : 8,5

I'd suspect that's the curve 2 engine.

>In a later test were a gap between engine and wing was covered, 002 managed 608km/h at SL using MW50. But all tests were done using underperforming engines, mentioned in both FW and Junkers documents and so they approve Hennings oppion that the engine of 002 was somewhat "bad".

On the other hand, 006 and 043 had perfectly good engines. All tested aircraft had higher drag than the curve 4 aircraft, though.

The interesting discovery you now made is that 002 was brought up to a drag condition slightly superior to the curve 4 aircraft later, and 001 shared the same low drag with s standard finish.

Did 002 reach the quoted 608 km/h @ 0 km with a good engine? If it was the same sub-standard engine it had earlier, all the filling and polishing might have done it some good after all :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2005, 01:38:52 PM »
Hi Kurfürst,

>here`s the finnish curves of MT 215 (109G-2) :

Hm, to keep the unavoidable thread creep to a minimum, could you please open a separate thread for the Me 109 issue? Thanks in advance! :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2005, 01:49:30 PM »
Hi again,

>My new suggestion: The curve 3 aircraft has the same drag as the standard Dora, but the supercharger gearing has been changed to operate the supercharger at a lower speed

I've got a new and even better idea now: Curve 3 is achieved with standard supercharger and supercharger gearing, but with reduced compression.

As the C3-engine shows, Junker was varying the compression to adopt the engine for different altitude bands, so reducing compression to get a low-altitude engine would be the obvious technique.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2005, 03:25:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen
Actually the MT-215 data is a good example if you compare it with the DB factory data. The curves I'm talking about contain static and dynamic MAP as well as how the MAP changes above the FTH.


Actually the MT 215 makes your claim totally silly, but doh, facts do not bother you much... but, as HoHun suggested, if you are so keen sharing your ideas with others about the virtually endless list of DB/109 faults and failings, why dont you do it in a seperate thread and refrain here from spreading nonsense you dont back up later at all...
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Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2005, 03:28:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
Hi again,

I've got a new and even better idea now: Curve 3 is achieved with standard supercharger and supercharger gearing, but with reduced compression.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)



What I am wondering about is why curve 2 (Sonder/C3) and curve 4 (sonder/B4+MW) differ from each other..? I`d rule out different boost as it`s appearing on the whole altitude range.

ETC present/removed? Any idea?
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