Author Topic: Fw190 D-9 2.03 ata  (Read 7586 times)

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #90 on: June 14, 2005, 06:02:19 AM »
I would not mention favourite agendas Barbarrosa Isegrim with your 'penny pocket' 1.98ata 109 one.:rofl


Now, can we get back to the Dora, please.

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #91 on: June 14, 2005, 06:09:24 AM »
Quote
Gripen says:
Could you please show where NACA did such statement.



Quote
NACA says:
The rush of mass production during the war and the tasks of meticulous maintenance in combat zones never met the standards of NACA laboratories.
\



All the best,

Crumpp

Offline gripen

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« Reply #92 on: June 14, 2005, 06:27:54 AM »
Crumpp,
The statement you quote is not the opinion of the NACA about wartime performance testing.

The normally quoted performance numbers of the P-51 are not from NACA laboratories but from various testing organizations (Eglin field, A&AEE, Patuxent river, Wright field etc.) and tested planes were practically allways standard (mass produced) production planes.

gripen

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #93 on: June 14, 2005, 07:57:41 AM »
Quote
The normally quoted performance numbers of the P-51 are not from NACA laboratories but from various testing organizations (Eglin field, A&AEE, Patuxent river, Wright field etc.) and tested planes were practically allways standard (mass produced) production planes.


Come on Gripen.

Lets not split hairs.  The NACA oversees the testing and fulfills a similar role as the RAE and RLM.

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but it must be remembered that this was an advisory committee only, "to supervise and direct the scientific study of the problems of flight, with a view to their practical solutions." Once the NACA isolated a problem, its study and solution was generally done by a government agency or university laboratory, often on an ad hoc basis within limited funding.


http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-4406/chap1.html

Many of the NACA's test's come from those government agencies you mention.  Many of those agencies test's are the result of NACA discoveries.

The NACA had little to no stake in the P 51 Mustang and no reason to present a anything but the truth of the results they encountered.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline gripen

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« Reply #94 on: June 14, 2005, 08:23:56 AM »
Crumpp,
None of the quotes support your statement:

"the NACA admits wartime performance testing of the P 51 was not representative a frontline fighter."

Could you please show where NACA did such statement.

gripen

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #95 on: June 14, 2005, 10:01:44 AM »
Quote
NACA says:

The rush of mass production during the war and the tasks of meticulous maintenance in combat zones never met the standards of NACA laboratories.


Meaning the manufacturers and end users where never able to achieve the standards of the NACA test's.  As we saw in the P51 drag report, windtunnel and flight test's gave good agreement under test conditions.  Problem is test conditions did not represent ground truth conditions.

Quote
NACA says:
For the best performance, manufacturing tolerances had to be perfect and maintenance of wing surfaces needed to be thorough.


Quote
Crumpp says:

"the NACA admits wartime performance testing of the P 51 was not representative a frontline fighter."


Is exactly what the NACA says above, Gripen.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline gripen

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« Reply #96 on: June 14, 2005, 10:28:00 AM »
Crumpp,
Performance numbers (from Eglin field, A&AEE, Wright field, Patuxent river etc.) for the Mustang are from the tests of (mass) production airfarmes and not from NACA laboratories. So the quote simply can't support your statement.

gripen

Offline LRRP22

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« Reply #97 on: June 14, 2005, 10:39:49 AM »
Crumpp,

Again, none of the official performance numbers published for the Mustang (or any other service aircraft) were conducted by NACA or relied on NACA data.  That was simply not its purpose.  NACA conducted experimental and conceptual testing, not Army Air Force or Navy production performance trials.

The unavoidable fact is that all service performance numbers were generated by the services themselves,  from stock production aircraft pulled at random from production batches.  The USAAF and RAF had a critical interest in knowing what the production aircraft that they received from production batches were capable of.  You have to understand that, don't you?  

Does NASA perform service tests of the F-22?  Of course not, the Air Force conducts its own test at Edwards Air Force Base just like the USAAF conducted its own tests at Wright Field or Eglin Field.

At this point, you're just being stubborn.


Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Meaning the manufacturers and end users where never able to achieve the standards of the NACA test's.  As we saw in the P51 drag report, windtunnel and flight test's gave good agreement under test conditions.  Problem is test conditions did not represent ground truth conditions.


 
I have no problem with that statement.  Unfortunately, that statement has nothing to do with whether or not a P-51 in squadron service could exceed 430 MPH in level flight.  The numbers published by the various services had nothing to do with NACA's experimental tests and everything to do with the Services' formalized evaluation process for production aircraft.  NACA never performed production service performance tests.  Please show me one instance of NACA performing level speed performance tests of a production P-51.

.

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #98 on: June 14, 2005, 11:23:29 AM »
Quote
Again, none of the official performance numbers published for the Mustang (or any other service aircraft) were conducted by NACA or relied on NACA data.


The NACA did not perform test's.  It was an advisory committee that simply advised on others data.

Quote
but it must be remembered that this was an advisory committee only, "to supervise and direct the scientific study of the problems of flight, with a view to their practical solutions." Once the NACA isolated a problem, its study and solution was generally done by a government agency or university laboratory, often on an ad hoc basis within limited funding.


Quote
government agency



Are the following:

Quote
Gripen says:

various testing organizations (Eglin field, A&AEE, Patuxent river, Wright field etc.) and tested planes were practically allways standard (mass produced) production planes.


The  
Quote
standard (mass produced) production planes


were ones built by North American to their high standards as opposed by a subcontractor or the chaos of opening two huge new plants to meet the contract awarded from those test's.

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: June 14, 2005, 11:30:39 AM by Crumpp »

Offline LRRP22

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« Reply #99 on: June 14, 2005, 12:03:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
The NACA did not perform test's.  It was an advisory committee that simply advised on others data.

 

 


Are the following:



The  

were ones built by North American to their high standards as opposed by a subcontractor or the chaos of opening two huge new plants to meet the contract awarded from those test's.

All the best,

Crumpp


Crumpp,

No USAAF or RAF P-51 Mustang was ever built by a subcontracter.  Every one of the ~15,000 produced were produced by NAA at the Inglewood, CA or Dallas, TX plants.  Fit and finish were always of extremely high quality.  Considering the fact that the Mustang was produced in small numbers for nearly two years before the large Merlin Mustang contracts were awarded, it's not suprising that NAA had a pretty good handle on the production process by May of '43.  

CAA in Australia license built some examples for the RAAF late in the war, but they never saw combat action.

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #100 on: June 14, 2005, 12:59:21 PM »
Quote
Every one of the ~15,000 produced were produced by NAA at the Inglewood, CA or Dallas, TX plants.


You are correct.  However if you know the history of NAA then you know that huge additional plants were built to meet the demands of contract awarded to them by the USAAF.

Just as there are manufacturing differences between Focke Wulf Bremen and their plant in Sorau it is not unlikely that quality control issues arose for NAA during their expansion.  Any plant manager for any manufacturering firm will confirm this fact of business.

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To meet the demands of war, North American opened new factories in Kansas City, KS, and in Dallas, Texas.


http://www.boeing.com/history/bna/waryr.html

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline LRRP22

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« Reply #101 on: June 14, 2005, 01:11:18 PM »
Crumpp,

You can't compare the production challenges faced by Focke Wulf to the production environment enjoyed by Noth American.  They existed in two completely different worlds.  The industrial production line utilized by NAA was far more conducive to uniform quality than were the more artisan- based systems used in Europe at that time.  When you factor in forced (slave) labor, the differences become even more stark.  

I have yet to see any reference to differences in production quality between the Inglewood and Dallas plants.  Quite the contrary, in fact.  Also, the Dallas plant was in operation well before Mustang production began there.  

There were U.S. manufacturers that did have quality problems, Brewster being the most egregious while Curtiss had more than its share of quality issues as well.  North American was certainly at the other end of that spectrum.



Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
You are correct.  However if you know the history of NAA then you know that huge additional plants were built to meet the demands of contract awarded to them by the USAAF.

Just as there are manufacturing differences between Focke Wulf Bremen and their plant in Sorau it is not unlikely that quality control issues arose for NAA during their expansion.  Any plant manager for any manufacturering firm will confirm this fact of business.



http://www.boeing.com/history/bna/waryr.html

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: June 14, 2005, 01:23:41 PM by LRRP22 »

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #102 on: June 14, 2005, 02:25:10 PM »
Quote
I have yet to see any reference to differences in production quality between the Inglewood and Dallas plants. Quite the contrary, in fact. Also, the Dallas plant was in operation well before Mustang production began there.


What your saying is extraordinary!  I am sure then North American's management techniques are studied in every major business school.

Funny though I do not remember them being reviewed when I got my business degree.

I do remember:

http://www.michiganhistorymagazine.com/extra/willow_run/willow_run.html

However North American was never studied.  Perhaps they should have been.

Unfortunately your claim is completely different from the NACA's facts on P 51 production standards.

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: June 14, 2005, 02:33:06 PM by Crumpp »

Offline LRRP22

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« Reply #103 on: June 14, 2005, 02:53:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
What your saying is extraordinary!  I am sure then North American's management techniques are studied in every major business school.

Funny though I do not remember them being reviewed when I got my business degree.

I do remember:

http://www.michiganhistorymagazine.com/extra/willow_run/willow_run.html

However North American was never studied.  Perhaps they should have been.

Unfortunately your claim is completely different from the NACA's facts on P 51 production standards.

All the best,

Crumpp


I don't understand exactly where you are going with this.  Are you claiming that NAA didn't have a well-developed assembly line system?  What is so extraordinary about North American's production line?  What is so hard for you to believe?  Are you claiming that Focke Wulf's production realities were the same as NAA's?  How many times was the Inglewood plant bombed?  How many Mustang components were built in a cave?  Are you denying the use of forced labor?  Is this all based in an inability to accept that a typical P-51 produced in 1944-45 was of a much higher production quality than a typical Fw 190 produced during the same period?

As yet you have provided not a single shred of evidence to support your "NACA facts".  All you've posted is a link to a general history webpage that states that it was impossible to achieve wind tunnel model tolerances on a 1940's production line.  You'll get no argument there.   It is your vast extrapolations of that statement and your total blindness to hard test data that is worthy of argument.

Let's clarify again- is it your position that USAAF and RAF service tested Mustangs were specially built models that achieved actual laminar flow in flight?  Do you deny that the official performance numbers were based on representative production models of the same quality as those delivered to the squadrons?  You must be.  As long as you cling to the belief that official Mustang performance numbers were derived from NACA wind tunnels, further discussion seems pointless.

Why don't you just admit that you really want to believe that operational P-51's were all much slower than the offical figures.  Staffeln Fw 190's on the other hand regularly met or exceeded factory spec's, didn't they?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2005, 03:12:32 PM by LRRP22 »

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #104 on: June 14, 2005, 04:32:14 PM »
Quote
I don't understand exactly where you are going with this.


I am saying you are not considering the realities of business.  Do a google search for "expansion management".

Your claiming North American pulled off a business miracle.

They rapidly and greatly expanded their company in order to meet the demands of the defense contract with no drop in production quality or output.  No shortage of workers, in short no snags whatsoever.

They were already producing planes, sure.  Where did they get the other skilled labour that fast to expand?  I am sure that in 1942 skilled aircraft assembly workers were a dime a dozen and were just waiting to be hired with no training needed.  Sign up and move to their spot on the line.

That is not even considering tooling, logistics, location concerns, etc....

Let's look at Willow run which also manufactered parts before it's expansion and is considered a model in manufacturing management:

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The main building and the flying field were not completed until early 1942. But the plant, except for the relatively small area where parts production was underway, was in a state of turmoil as tools were received, fixtures set up and supervisors and untrained employees tried coping with an alien undertaking. The task was aggravated by a severe housing shortage near the Willow Run vicinity and the length of time required—an hour or more each way—for Detroit workers to commute to and from their jobs.


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The myth that Willow Run was performing production miracles exploded in August 1942 when James H. "Dutch" Kindelberger, the blunt president of North American Aviation, told a startled group of reporters that Willow Run, despite all of the talk, had yet to manufacture an airplane.


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In January 1943 the government’s War Production Board officially criticized Willow Run’s performance for the first time. The factory’s primary problem, according to the board, was a shortage of manpower, the plant found it difficult to hire and keep competent workers.


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During the last few months of 1943, as the giant plant began living up to its press notices of 1941 and the first half of 1942, the threat of a government takeover faded.


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The total number of B-24s built at Willow Run was 8,685. The last bomber, named the "Henry Ford," moved off the assembly line on June 24, 1945. A few minutes before the plane was to be towed from the plant, Henry Ford requested that his name be removed from the nose of the ship and that employees sign their names in its place.


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Willow Run was a miracle plant, but Henry Ford was not a miracle man, and the wartime belief that he was is one of the great myths of World War II.


http://www.michiganhistorymagazine.com/extra/willow_run/willow_run.html

http://www.liberatorcrew.com/06_B-24_Prod.htm

The Focke Wulf Sorau anecdote was used simply to show that even among the same manufacturer there are quality differences and not as you try to make it out to be, a cry of superiority.

Don't believe the same manufacturer can have quality differences, buy any car made on a Friday or a Monday!


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As long as you cling to the belief that official Mustang performance numbers were derived from NACA wind tunnels, further discussion seems pointless.


Where do you see wind tunnels only in this?  Are you missing the "test flight" portion followed by "good agreement"?



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In order to obtain a correlation of drag data from wind-tunnel and flight tests  at high Mach numbers, a typical pursuit airplane, with the propeller removed, was tested in flight at Mach numbers up to 0.755, and the results were compared with wind-tunnel tests of a 1/3-scale model of the airplane. The tests results show that the drag characteristics of the test airplane from tests in the Ames 16-foot high-speed wind tunnel of the Ames Aeronautical Laboratory can be predicted with satisfactory accuracy at both high and low Mach numbers. It is considered that this result is not unique with the airplane.


http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1948/naca-report-916/

However the NACA concluded that frontline units would not see the same results due to:

Quote
NACA says:
The rush of mass production during the war and the tasks of meticulous maintenance in combat zones never met the standards of NACA laboratories.


Quote
NACA says:
For the best performance, manufacturing tolerances had to be perfect and maintenance of wing surfaces needed to be thorough.


http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-4406/chap2.html

You can slice it up anyway you want but  the facts are the facts.

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As yet you have provided not a single shred of evidence to support your "NACA facts".


What are your standards?  That I go back and reproduce all the test's and reports from labs, government flight test's, and combat unit reports that led the NACA to this conclusion?

Why?

It's not Crumpp's conclusion, it's the NACA's from their own website!

Besides you have your one report to refute all the NACA's work and conclusions.


All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: June 14, 2005, 04:39:51 PM by Crumpp »