Chinese begin to worry U.S. militarily

[JB88]

hmmm.  the taiwan missle crisis...sounds fun.

[NUKE]

Originally posted by Toad
Since most of our non-US posters and some of the US posters seem to think that NK and Iran having nukes is either no big deal or a good deal, I think we should just give Taiwan a decent nuclear arsenal.

That way, when push comes to shove, the Taiwanese themselves can make the decision about how badly they don't want to be part of China.

Also, the Chinese can make the decision on how badly they want to bring Taiwan back into the fold.

Problem solved. What's a little nuke tossing between mother country and renegade province anyway?

It's GOOD for everyone to have nukes.... or so I've been told.

That's a great idea Toad. It would solve the problem in Taiwan overnight.

And you are right. A lot of  people here say that countries like Iran have a right to nukes, so they should have no problem with Taiwan having them......unless they are just racists or something.

[Seagoon]

Just curious, does it ever occur to anyone to simply consider whether it is right to allow a small state that desperately wants to remain free, democratic, and independent to be absorbed, annexed, or conquered by a large totalitarian state? All I hear are utilitarian discussions of whether or not we wish to engage the aggressive totalitarian state or simply, "hey, its not my country." Applying the same logic, the world shouldn't have intervened to stop Germany gobbling up Czechoslovakia or even Poland.

We are actually discussing the fate of 22 million people, who, having finally gained the ability to vote in democratic elections are in grave danger of never being allowed to do it again. In one fell swoop, they will lose freedom of expression, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, and all of the various assorted rights and freedoms that members of this board hold so dear and complain bitterly over when they are infringed.

Will we never again take an action, not because we are assured of success, or because it will be popular, or maintain our prosperity, but because it is simply right, noble, and good?

If a loss of willingness to confront and resist obvious evil is the price of prosperity and peace, than that price is too high to my mind.

- SEAGOON

[Toad]

Originally posted by Seagoon
If a loss of willingness to confront and resist obvious evil is the price of prosperity and peace, than that price is too high to my mind.

- SEAGOON

I can help you.

Other than the US and everything it does or tries to do, there is no "obvious evil".

There. That should clear things up for you.

[Curval]

Originally posted by Toad
Since most of our non-US posters and some of the US posters seem to think that NK and Iran having nukes is either no big deal or a good deal, I think we should just give Taiwan a decent nuclear arsenal.

That way, when push comes to shove, the Taiwanese themselves can make the decision about how badly they don't want to be part of China.

Also, the Chinese can make the decision on how badly they want to bring Taiwan back into the fold.

Problem solved. What's a little nuke tossing between mother country and renegade province anyway?

It's GOOD for everyone to have nukes.... or so I've been told.

How many nukes would it take to get to the liquid gooey center of Taiwan.



BOOM - One

BOOM - Two

BOOM - Three

How many to knock out China, or even put a dent in its population?

I'm not disagreeing with the concept...but fundamentally this solution is flawed because of the relative size of each country.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Seagoon
Just curious, does it ever occur to anyone to simply consider whether it is right to allow a small state that desperately wants to remain free, democratic, and independent to be absorbed, annexed, or conquered by a large totalitarian state? All I hear are utilitarian discussions of whether or not we wish to engage the aggressive totalitarian state or simply, "hey, its not my country." Applying the same logic, the world shouldn't have intervened to stop Germany gobbling up Czechoslovakia or even Poland.

We are actually discussing the fate of 22 million people, who, having finally gained the ability to vote in democratic elections are in grave danger of never being allowed to do it again. In one fell swoop, they will lose freedom of expression, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, and all of the various assorted rights and freedoms that members of this board hold so dear and complain bitterly over when they are infringed.

Will we never again take an action, not because we are assured of success, or because it will be popular, or maintain our prosperity, but because it is simply right, noble, and good?

If a loss of willingness to confront and resist obvious evil is the price of prosperity and peace, than that price is too high to my mind.

- SEAGOON

I think the debate on the righteousness of it is already settled. Of course it is the right thing to do but it does matter at what it would cost (deaths). Are the deaths of every person on the planet (worst case scenario - nuclear war) worth us defending the rights of the Taiwanese? With so many unknown variables about how such a war would occur or cause I would say no. They have weapons and 22 million people you say? Sounds like they ought to defend themselves and leave us out of it.

Sorry but you cannot compare a military conflict with China with one with Germany. Nukes put a different spin on things when you are talking about war.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Curval
I'm not disagreeing with the concept...but fundamentally this solution is flawed because of the relative size of each country.

Not really. It's not a question of size, it's a question of the vulnerablility of the political system and population.

Clearly, the political system and population of Taiwan are at greater risk. They could be totally eliminated by China's nuclear weapons.

OTOH, can China's political system and population afford to risk their major cities to bring Taiwan back into the fold?

Imagine Taiwan targeting the parts of China that have the most population. Wouldn't take that many nukes and it would destroy China just as effectively as China could destroy Taiwan.

It's the old "MAD" concept. Neither would win, both would perish as political entities on the world stage.

As I said, you don't have to give Taiwan that many nukes to create a viable counterbalance to China's military.

 

[Curval]

Dunno man...the concept of MAD worked well in the US Soviet case but I still don't think it is valid in this case.

I suppose it "could" work if you guys gave/lent Taiwan some nuclear subs that could strike AFTER Taiwan itself had been hit.  I think China could be just crazy enough to try and eliminate Taiwans capability to respond to a massive first strike.  Taiwan is a real sore spot for the Chinese.

[Toad]

Curval.. c'mon. That's not how you do things.

What we do is give Taiwan tons o' bucks in some obscure agricultural package and let them buy the latest tech subs and weaponry from the Soviets.

Even better, we encourage them to trade with NK and get some heavy duty nukes.

Because, after all, it's OK for all Euro nations to sell cutting edge military stuff to mainland China. In fact, it's a good thing.

So, we just surreptitiously match (or double - whatever, it's better than sending US troops to fight for them) any funds they use to buy the very best Europe has to offer in the way of missiles, subs, nukes, etc.

Then, when both China and Taiwan are armed to the teeth with the very latest Euro weapons they can either go at it or assume a MAD stance.

It's simple, it's elegant and it complies with the current suggestions on the BBS.

BTW... just think how hesitant people would be to laugh at pink shorts if you guys bought a few nukes yourself. Just a thought.

[JB88]

i happen to think the pink shorts look good on you toad.  you dont need nukes to stop me from laughing.

whatever floats yer boat bro.






<------ searching for nearest fallout shelter.

[JB88]

maybe skuzzy would consider trying your theory on the BBS level as an experiment and give EVERYBODY irreversable lock priveledges.


sounds fun!

[Toad]

I wish I could claim the "everybody who wants some should be able to have all the nukes they want" theory as my own.

Alas, it is not. I merely joined the bandwagon that started across the ocean.

[JB88]

oooohhhh....your with "THE BAND".  

cooooool

[-dead-]

Originally posted by NUKE
That's a great idea Toad. It would solve the problem in Taiwan overnight.

And you are right. A lot of  people here say that countries like Iran have a right to nukes, so they should have no problem with Taiwan having them......unless they are just racists or something.

Great idea - after all, it really worked out well for the Russians in Cuba.

"It will be the policy of this nation, to regard any nuclear missile, launched from Taiwan against any nation in the Eastern hemisphere, as an attack by the United States on the People's Republic of China, requiring a full retaliatory response upon the United States."

Only the PRC would see this as much more provocative and inflammatory than the Cuba crisis, as the US would be basing missiles targetted on Chinese cities on Chinese sovereign soil. So as soon as the missile plan got started, the PRC would invade. So the Taiwan problem would certainly be solved, but I think the Taiwanese wouldn't be that happy about the solution.

[Toad]

Nah, just let the Taiwanese buy stuff on the open market and lie about what they're buying. They can say they're buying subs with conventional warheads from the Russians but of course they'd be getting nuke warheads.

The lying goes on all the time, it's going on right now. Everyone smiles and pretends it's the truth.

The Chinese wouldn't know for sure if the Taiwanese had nukes or not.

As for a Chinese threat to the US, we'd merely assure them that we have nothing to do with Taiwan anymore. Further, we assure them that if the Chinese shoot at us, they will receive our full nuclear arsenal in return. Only in reply, of course.

MAD all over again.

It'll get us by the next 50 years or so. We can think up something different then.