Chinese begin to worry U.S. militarily

[Toad]

Originally posted by JB88
oooohhhh....your with "THE BAND".  

cooooool

Yep, Virgil Caine is the name.

[Seagoon]

Originally posted by Raider179
I think the debate on the righteousness of it is already settled. Of course it is the right thing to do but it does matter at what it would cost (deaths). Are the deaths of every person on the planet (worst case scenario - nuclear war) worth us defending the rights of the Taiwanese? With so many unknown variables about how such a war would occur or cause I would say no. They have weapons and 22 million people you say? Sounds like they ought to defend themselves and leave us out of it.

Sorry but you cannot compare a military conflict with China with one with Germany. Nukes put a different spin on things when you are talking about war.

Raider,

At the time of the Munich crisis, papers in France and Britain were carrying hysterical pieces opining that the populations of the major cities would be gassed to death if the allies went to war with Germany over the Sudetenland. The theory was, that as soon as the balloon went up, unstoppable bomber fleets carrying Mustard Gas bombs would wipe us all out, and as a result Londoners were issued gas masks against the doomsday threat. Obviously these threatened mass gassings of civilian populations never materialized during WW2 as the great powers realized the consequences of such an action, and as providence directed the course of the war.

But the important thing was that fear of anihilation and an unwillingness to sacrifice our lives for people in another country (in this case 13 million Czechoslovakians) lead to us caving in, in the face of an unmitigated evil. As a result, that evil grew stronger and when the confrontation became inevitable, more lives were lost than would have been if that evil had been confronted earlier.

Obviously 22 Million Taiwanese, armed with 3rd rate weapons because of the ongoing defacto arms embargo have no possibility of stopping 4 billion Chinese by themselves from taking over their island if they want to.

But Raider, if we sit back and allow this monstrous evil to occur, if we feed this crocodile do we really think they'll say "thanks, that's enough for me, I'm full?" I'd say that if they are allowed to wade in and consume Taiwan the Chinese crocodile will be made even more ravenous and even more dangerous, especially because of the fresh injection of capital and technology such a conquest would produce (just as the Germans where made much stronger by "inheriting" the Skoda armament works). Aggresive and expansive totalitarian states are never pacified by appeasement and non-resistance China will not be the first.

Either we pay a little now, or we will pay massively later.

[As an aside: as someone who doesn't believe that the course of world affairs is directed by chance, I don't personally have any fear of a nuclear doomsday scenario. Its worth noting that the great powers have never ultimately suffered catastrophic consequences for doing the right thing but they have frequently suffered terrible consequences for doing the wrong thing or doing the right thing in an equivocal manner.]

- SEAGOON

[Mox]

Originally posted by -dead-
Great idea - after all, it really worked out well for the Russians in Cuba.

"It will be the policy of this nation, to regard any nuclear missile, launched from Taiwan against any nation in the Eastern hemisphere, as an attack by the United States on the People's Republic of China, requiring a full retaliatory response upon the United States."

Only the PRC would see this as much more provocative and inflammatory than the Cuba crisis, as the US would be basing missiles targetted on Chinese cities on Chinese sovereign soil. So as soon as the missile plan got started, the PRC would invade. So the Taiwan problem would certainly be solved, but I think the Taiwanese wouldn't be that happy about the solution.

What makes you think the missiles aren't already in Taiwan and the Subs already in the water?

Just a thought...

Mox

[Seagoon]

'cause MAD only works if the other side knows they are there.

Didn'tcha ever see Dr. Strangelove?

- SEAGOON

[Toad]

I don't think they have to know, I think they just have to have a strong reasonable doubt.

Gee, I wish we had one of them doomsday machines.

[Thrawn]

Why?  Bush administration knew Iraq had WMD but still invaded, heck used it as pretext to invade.

[bunch]

anyone made a good joke about takeout or dry cleaning yet?

[Elfie]

edit, quote didnt work properly

[Rolex]

The US has a one China policy. The ROC doesn't even exist, so I guess the US wouldn't be breaking the nuclear non-proliferation treaty by supply virtual nukes to a virtual island.

"An infallible method of conciliating a tiger is to allow oneself to be devoured." -- Konrad Adenauer

Now, you probably think that this quotation applies to China, but if you were Chinese, you would likely think it applies to the US.

The people of China and the US do have some common traits. Neither lack world-class confidence that theirs is a superior society ordained to shape and lead the world. And neither are shy about telling those who disagree to STFU and stay out of their business. And both are willing to use the power of force to achieve their goals. Both have world-class pride.

China had an extraordinary culture hundreds of years before the US even existed. If you've stood on the Great Wall or walked through the Forbidden City, you've felt the scale of China.

To Chinese, the continued separation of Taiwan is one of the greatest shames in their history. The colonization of Taiwan by Japan and support today by the US (and Japan, considered to be acting simply as a US proxy) is considered no less than a Confederate state in the US still being independent.

Imagine for a moment that Texas were still independent and received support from England, France and China? ( ) How would the US view those countries? That is the same emotion Chinese feel about Taiwan.

The leader in power at the time China brings Taiwan back into the fold will be regarded in China no less than Abraham Lincoln is regarded today in the US. Lincoln did use force. More Americans were killed in the Civil War than all the wars of the 20th century.

It is the stated doctrine of the US that it will thwart any nation attempting to challenge US military dominance. The US official diplomatic policy is that alliances are temporary and can be reversed instantly to serve the doctrine.

It is the goal of China to retain its past glory and take what it feels is its rightful place as a leader in world affairs.

Two strong willed, strong-headed adversaries.

There is an interesting parallel to this situation. China is working on creating a PC OS to erase Microsoft's dominance in China. China considers Microsoft's business practices in the ramp up to global dominance, and the fight to remain a virtual monopoly, to be the same as US foreign policy.

Anyway, having a little insight into the mind of an adversary is not a bad thing.

[Seeker]

Originally posted by Seagoon
" Applying the same logic, the world shouldn't have intervened to stop Germany gobbling up Czechoslovakia or even Poland.


- SEAGOON

The "world" didn't intervene; Britain did.

For which, apparently; the Poles think we should apologise; an irony which I think should have Toad giggling into his Glenfiddich.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Seeker
The "world" didn't intervene; Britain did.

[/b]

As did France.

For which, apparently; the Poles think we should apologise; an irony which I think should have Toad giggling into his Glenfiddich.

Hadn't seen that from the Poles.

I giggle into MacAllan anymore.

[Seagoon]

Rolex,

Yes, the Chinese have played the national "loss of face" card successfully in the past to take control over Hong Kong and Macao. This was despite the fact that the majority of the population of both provinces did not wish to "rejoin" the mainland, with good reason and have since been forced to watch as their rights even under the SAR agreement are gradually stripped away.

Now, ongoing unendurable loss of face is being enthusiastically promoted as a reason for allowing China to take over an independent state that has as much right to exist as a sovereign nation as Israel, Bosnia, Bangladesh, Eritriea and any other number of sovereign states formed in the 20th century from land previously controlled by other countries.

Well, one wonders what unendurable loss of face caused the Chinese to invade and occupy Tibet, which had never been part of China, or Inner Mongolia (getting their own back on the Khans perhaps?). One might sympathize over their invasion and continued occupation of Manchuria, especially since most of that country was at least ethnically Chinese, but Turkistan? Rolex, the fact is that the Chinese are imperialists in classical sense, they invade and conquer other weaker neighbors, replace the indigenous culture with their own, and then begin colonizing the conquered territory - and they never leave. And the conquered are in no way better off under their rule.

- SEAGOON

[-dead-]

Originally posted by Mox
What makes you think the missiles aren't already in Taiwan and the Subs already in the water?

Just a thought...

Mox

Because the whole point of having a nuclear deterrent is that the other side has to know you have them - keeping nukes secret is counter-productive.

[Toad]

Unless you are keeping it secret until you have sufficient forces.

[mars01]

Holy Fk Toad, you have me laughing my arse off, what a beautifully, brilliant, devilish plan.

Toad 2008!!!!!