Author Topic: Another day, another mass grave (Read 1629 times)

Raider179 · « **Reply #60 on:** April 20, 2005, 01:05:23 PM »

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Originally posted by Krusher
BS. The US may have done business with him (so did most of the world) but to say we created him shows a breathtaking lack of perspective. As far as selling him mustard gas, how many times does this myth have to be debunked.

Yeah it was anthrax and botulism toxin....

http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/bioter/iraqgermsusfrance.html

A copy of the pages of the Iraqi declaration dealing with biological weapons was provided to The New York Times, and it reveals the full variety of germs that Iraq says it obtained from abroad for its biological weapons program.

The document shows that the American and French supply houses shipped 17 types of biological agents to Iraq in the 1980's that were used in the weapons programs. Those included anthrax and the bacteria needed to make botulinum toxin, among the most deadly poisons known. It also discloses that Iraq had tried unsuccessfully to obtain biological agents in the late 1980's from other biological supply houses around the world

and west nile virus

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/03/16/Perspective/How_Iraq_built_its_we.shtml

American Type Culture Collection was not the only supplier to send biological materials to Iraq in the decade before the Gulf War, when the Reagan and first Bush administrations tilted toward Iraq in its eight-year war with Iran. Also between 1985 and 1989, the Atlanta-based Centers for Disease Control sent Iraq 14 agents "with biological warfare significance," including West Nile virus, according to Riegle's investigators.

"We did work with Iraq's scientists along with other scientists on microbiological agents and reagents," said CDC spokesman LLelwyn Grant last week. "That did occur in the mid-80s but . . . there were no other shipments that were sent after the incident involving Iraq's invasion of Kuwait."

Elfie · « **Reply #61 on:** April 20, 2005, 02:26:31 PM »

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Oh and thanks for selling him the mustard gas,nice one.

That has been debunked so many times.

From your first link Raider:

Jonathan Tucker, a former United Nations weapons inspector who is a visiting fellow at the United States Institute of Peace in Washington, said that the 1980's "were a more innocent time, and the default in those days was to supply these cultures to academic research labs without asking many questions."

Anthrax spores were sold to Iraq with the understanding that they were going to be used in making anthrax vaccine for livestock. You imply that the US and France both provided germs to Iraq with full knowledge that they would be used to advance bio-weapons research.

From your second link:

Grant and Wysocki both said that Iraqi clients could not have acquired biological materials without setting forth a legitimate research purpose. In a 1995 letter to Sen. Riegle, then-CDC director David Satcher disclosed a shipment that had been hand-carried to Iraq by Dr. Mahammad Mahmud after three months of training in a CDC laboratory. Most of those materials, Satcher said, were "non-infectious diagnostic reagents for detecting evidence of infections to mosquito-borne viruses."

Germs have uses other than making bio-weapons. Things like legitimate research and vaccines.

Btw, both of those links are 2 years old. No new news in them.

Raider, read your other reply to me about Bush's speeches. I dont think I saw those particular speeches just before the war started. From those speeches I can see how you would come up with WMD as a MAIN reason for going to war with Iraq.

lazs2 · « **Reply #62 on:** April 20, 2005, 02:27:01 PM »

"Ah, the hoary old "anyone who disagrees with the USA is a communist" argument, second only to the "we saved your tulips in 2 world wars so we should get a free pass now" argument. Nice work!"

hardly (this goes for nielsen too)... I never censor anyone on this board of purposly change what they said by misquoting or deleting... it is you who are guilty of that. Heck... I don't even have anyone on ignore. I don't think disagreeing with the U.S. makes you a communist.... communist ideals make you a commie tho.

lazs

Nilsen · « **Reply #63 on:** April 20, 2005, 02:29:34 PM »

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Originally posted by lazs2
"Ah, the hoary old "anyone who disagrees with the USA is a communist" argument, second only to the "we saved your tulips in 2 world wars so we should get a free pass now" argument. Nice work!"

hardly (this goes for nielsen too)... I never censor anyone on this board of purposly change what they said by misquoting or deleting... it is you who are guilty of that. Heck... I don't even have anyone on ignore. I don't think disagreeing with the U.S. makes you a communist.... communist ideals make you a commie tho.

lazs

Whom do I have on ignore, and what have i deleted or misquoted?

lazs2 · « **Reply #64 on:** April 20, 2005, 02:36:22 PM »

nielsen the part that pertained to you was the part where you claimed that I censor anyone. I have denied it. you are wrong.

lazs

Nilsen · « **Reply #65 on:** April 20, 2005, 02:40:45 PM »

Oh way up there.. that was an attempt to be funny, but you didnt get that so im sorry lazse.

Raider179 · « **Reply #66 on:** April 20, 2005, 03:31:51 PM »

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Originally posted by Elfie
That has been debunked so many times.

From your first link Raider:

Jonathan Tucker, a former United Nations weapons inspector who is a visiting fellow at the United States Institute of Peace in Washington, said that the 1980's "were a more innocent time, and the default in those days was to supply these cultures to academic research labs without asking many questions."

Anthrax spores were sold to Iraq with the understanding that they were going to be used in making anthrax vaccine for livestock. You imply that the US and France both provided germs to Iraq with full knowledge that they would be used to advance bio-weapons research.

From your second link:

Grant and Wysocki both said that Iraqi clients could not have acquired biological materials without setting forth a legitimate research purpose. In a 1995 letter to Sen. Riegle, then-CDC director David Satcher disclosed a shipment that had been hand-carried to Iraq by Dr. Mahammad Mahmud after three months of training in a CDC laboratory. Most of those materials, Satcher said, were "non-infectious diagnostic reagents for detecting evidence of infections to mosquito-borne viruses."

Germs have uses other than making bio-weapons. Things like legitimate research and vaccines.

Btw, both of those links are 2 years old. No new news in them.

Raider, read your other reply to me about Bush's speeches. I dont think I saw those particular speeches just before the war started. From those speeches I can see how you would come up with WMD as a MAIN reason for going to war with Iraq.

Not sure what you are saying?? We gave it to them. They might have lied about what they were gonna do with it but doesnt change the facts it came from us.

Here's a question...why did we just not sell them the vaccine and make boatloads of money?

There is no new news because that is exactly it, that info is old. Its not disputed or false. I couldn't find the document Iraq released that gave all this info but I am sure it is out there somewhere.

One of the things I noticed was that Satcher said "MOST" of the materials. That means some of them were.

Gunslinger · « **Reply #67 on:** April 20, 2005, 04:20:06 PM »

So I guess if a "neo-con" takes a DIRECT QUOTE from somone or reports REAL history it is not to be trusted because history and quotes are misinformation???????

Don't beleive it prove it wrong...

I allways thought it was well known and widely reported that Sadam gave familys of suicide bombers money....

Elfie · « **Reply #68 on:** April 20, 2005, 05:45:53 PM »

Iraq lied about what their intentions were concerning the various germs and chemicals the US and other Western countries sold them. Does that make us responsible for what they did with them? Not imo it doesnt.

A decent enough analogy from one of your links:

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Say you run a filling station, says Nancy Wysocki, and one of your customers buys some gasoline and commits arson. "Does the person at the gas station feel bad about it?"

To say we gave him the stuff to make chemical/bio weapons implies that we did so knowing exactly what Saddam was going to use that stuff for. I have never seen any evidence that supports this. The evidence I have seen is quite the opposite. You cant blame the one who was lied to, well you can but it just doesnt hold water

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Here's a question...why did we just not sell them the vaccine and make boatloads of money?

Why give a man a fish when you can teach him how to fish for himself? We were trying to improve relations with Iraq during the 80's. Helping them make their own vaccines would help their economy would it not? Helping their economy would help improve relations between the 2 countries as well.

Elfie · « **Reply #69 on:** April 20, 2005, 05:48:22 PM »

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I allways thought it was well known and widely reported that Sadam gave familys of suicide bombers money....

It was widely reported and is common knowledge, except to those who choose to ignore it

Raider179 · « **Reply #70 on:** April 20, 2005, 05:57:27 PM »

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Originally posted by Gunslinger

I allways thought it was well known and widely reported that Sadam gave familys of suicide bombers money....

Yep he did to palestinians fighting Israeli's.

Raider179 · « **Reply #71 on:** April 20, 2005, 06:02:42 PM »

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Originally posted by Elfie
Iraq lied about what their intentions were concerning the various germs and chemicals the US and other Western countries sold them. Does that make us responsible for what they did with them? Not imo it doesnt.

A decent enough analogy from one of your links:

To say we gave him the stuff to make chemical/bio weapons implies that we did so knowing exactly what Saddam was going to use that stuff for. I have never seen any evidence that supports this. The evidence I have seen is quite the opposite. You cant blame the one who was lied to, well you can but it just doesnt hold water

Why give a man a fish when you can teach him how to fish for himself? We were trying to improve relations with Iraq during the 80's. Helping them make their own vaccines would help their economy would it not? Helping their economy would help improve relations between the 2 countries as well.

Ahhhh I see what you are saying. I never said we gave it to him knowing he would use it for weapons. All I did was clear up the mustard gas thing with what we actually did give him.

Using analogies is tenuous at best.

I could say if I give a drunk driver his keys and he goes out and kills someone am I responsible? Yep, not fully but I do have some blame because he didn't have his keys before hand.

As for teaching someone to fish I just dont know. We like to put countries into financial debt so that we have leverage against them. I still feel like it was a "gift" to Saddam so he could use it to pay back the Iranians for us. But that is just my opinion.

Silat · « **Reply #72 on:** April 20, 2005, 06:16:15 PM »

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Originally posted by NUKE
What does Reagan have to do with anything? Are you saying Reagan is responsible for Saddam?

We all know that his mommy and daddy are responsible for him:)

Elfie · « **Reply #73 on:** April 20, 2005, 06:36:13 PM »

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I could say if I give a drunk driver his keys and he goes out and kills someone am I responsible? Yep, not fully but I do have some blame because he didn't have his keys before hand.

That analogy doesnt assume you were lied to in the first place

We did give him chemicals as well, all of the ones we gave him had a dual-use. He lied about his intents with those as well.

I dont think we are responsible for what he did with them, not considering he lied about why he wanted them. Now, IF we had known what his real intent was, then yes we would be at least partly responsible.

Elfie · « **Reply #74 on:** April 20, 2005, 06:41:05 PM »

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Originally posted by GScholz
He never gave money to any suicide bomber. *lol* What would be the point.

He did however give money to every family who had lost a family member in the "fight against Israel".

Saddam gave money to the surviving families of suicide bombers. Palestinians knew this. It's still a reward for suicide bombings imo.