Author Topic: Eye Candy - Picture  (Read 2497 times)

PakRat

  • Guest
Eye Candy - Picture
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2001, 07:17:00 AM »
Been playing with this and now I see why there ain't that many planes in the image. The transparent props and canopies *really* slow down the rendering. Well, I added a bunch of planes and now after rendering all night, expecting to see a finished picture this AM, it's only 20% done. Not too bad - and it looks pretty damn awesome - but sloooow. I guess it might be done by tonight when I get home from work. Or maybe not - 7 hours and 45 minutes to render 19% of the image! OK, maybe it'll be done tomorrow afternoon.   Will post it up top when it's done.

------------------
Rape, pillage, then burn...

Offline 715

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1835
Eye Candy - Picture
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2001, 03:19:00 AM »
Very neat image.  The consensus of this thread so far, however, is that we won't be seeing this kind of quality anytime soon in real time flight sims.  Allow me to insert my 2 cents worth in the form of arguements to the contrary.  

The attributes of the POVray image that pop out are 1) smooth rounded surfaces, 2) reflections, and 3) high complexity (high surface count).  Ray tracing inherently handles all of these easily but it is a slow technique that isn't likely to be ever used for real time rendering.  Real time sims are based on software, or nowadays, hardware accelerated Gouraud shaded tesellated surface rendering techniques but there are tricks available that allow rapidly rendered images to approach ray traced like quality.

Current sims don't come anywhere near utilizing what modern 3D cards like the GeForce offer.  AH doesn't even make use of the Transform and Lighting acceleration of the GeForce.  Current GeForce cards can render 30 million polygons per second.  That means at 30 frames per second each frame can have a million polygons.  With more polygons you can make smoother aircraft renderings as well as add higher terrain complexity.  I grabbed a frame from Microsoft's Combat Flight Simulator II of a zero in the same orientation as the POVray rendering.  It looks 'almost' as good as the ray traced zero (unfortunately, I don't know how to paste images into these posts).  The scenery in CFS II looks even better than the scenery (ground) in the POVray image.  Note: CFS II makes use of the GeForce hardware transform and lighting and I had all quality sliders at max to grab the image.  Still the frame rate was very smooth.

If you check out Nvidia's web page you'll see many examples that make use of the various tricks to create realistic looking reflections and water.  The water, waves, and reflections in the POV ray image could probably be done in real time with GeForce 2 card using these reflection mapping and bump mapping techniques.  

The Nvidia page also has examples of 'worlds' with very high polygon count.  One example is a flight through a field of grass: over 10,000 blades of grass are rendered in real time and each moves in the breeze.  Each blade is made of many polygons so the card is rendering millions of polygons per second.  Obviously this is only possible with the T&L hardware acceleration of the GeForce.  This demo also includes realistically rendered reflective water (puddles).

So why doesn't Aces High have higher quality rendering?  Well I can think of two reasons.  First, the designers are, of course, aircraft fanatics and that shows in the fact that the aircraft, especially the latest ones like the TBM and Ju-88, are, in fact, pretty highly detailed.  The designers are not, however, closet architects or geologists and therefore don't have as much interest in making complex buildings or terrain.  The AH rendering engine is capable of much better terrain quality (as can be seen in several user generated terrains available for download).  And, as mentioned above, MS CFS II has even more realistic terrain rendering.  I am sure that much more complex buildings could be generated as well, but this is tedious and no one is asking for more complex cities (well... I would.. I buy boxed flight sims solely to fly around looking at the scenery).

The other limitation to rendered image quality is that the designers do not want to disenfranchise people that don't have the latest graphics cards and fastest CPUs.

In summary, available games take quite awhile to catch up with the capabilities of available graphics cards.  When flight sims start to make full use of the abilities of current Nvidia GeForce and ATI Radeon graphics cards, then the resulting image quality could go a long way towards approaching the POV ray image starting this thread.

715

Sandman_SBM

  • Guest
Eye Candy - Picture
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2001, 12:55:00 PM »
Nite Flyer rendered the image at 1280x1024. Click the image to download.
 

   

Oh... he said it took about 19 hours to render.

[This message has been edited by Sandman_SBM (edited 01-20-2001).]

HaHa

  • Guest
Eye Candy - Picture
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2001, 01:03:00 PM »
When recompiling the scene, anyone else get arial.ttf font file not found error?

Sandman_SBM

  • Guest
Eye Candy - Picture
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2001, 01:08:00 PM »
Copy the arial.ttf from your Windows/Fonts directory and place the copy in the same directory as the rest of "strike" files.

PakRat

  • Guest
Eye Candy - Picture
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2001, 01:42:00 PM »
This really is cool stuff - being able to render this kind of image on a home computer. Amazing!

715, you have some good points. I hope you are correct as the faster this kind of image appears on my screen in real time, the better!

I still think there will be delays though.

Even if top of the line systems could come close to this image now, there is still the software that needs to come up to speed and that won't happen until more people upgrade their computers.

I think HTC said they are still texture limited by the people with the low video RAM display cards and I know they are limited by the people flying with the slower computers.

But it's coming. This kind of stuff is just too tempting to resist. I can guarantee you that if someone was to offer an online sim with an exact duplicate feature set of AH but this kind of image quality, people would switch that had the systems capable of running it. That kind of pressure has to be in everyone's thoughts - HTC, iEN, Cornered Rat, etc.

As it is right now, people complain about the frame rate hits from smoke, etc, with a much less complicated image.

Jay - going to pull down Blender today. Thanks again!

------------------
Rape, pillage, then burn...

Jay_76

  • Guest
Eye Candy - Picture
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2001, 02:39:00 PM »
Pakrat,

hope you enjoy it... there's lots of good tutorials out there for blender, find the link to "Rash's Tutorial Index" from the blender page.

Jay.

Frosty1

  • Guest
Eye Candy - Picture
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2001, 03:51:00 PM »
------------------
===>Frosty
====>Exposure2k.com
=====>Frosty@exposure2k.com

[This message has been edited by Frosty1 (edited 01-20-2001).]

Frosty1

  • Guest
Eye Candy - Picture
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2001, 03:53:00 PM »
I don't believe this, i just wrote a post that took me 45 minutes to write and it's gone!!!!! DAMNIT TO HELL!!!!!! Oh well, screw it.


------------------
===>Frosty
====>Exposure2k.com
=====>Frosty@exposure2k.com

Offline Jimdandy

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 46
Eye Candy - Picture
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2001, 11:28:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Jay_76:
*grin*

JimDandy,

I remember watching that opening sequence in SWOTL thinking "GOD!!! Its like I'm really there!! Look at the smoke from the rockets!! Look at the color of the B17!" and then I'd ignore the fact that the land was flat, period, and the planes rapidly turned into collections of big squares if you got too close to them. Of course, from inside the cockpit (or the turrets) you didn't notice that stuff so much. It was in 256 color, though.  You can't beat that!

Lucasarts also released a Pacific theatre sim before BOB, but having played SWOTL first, there just was NO going back to that level of simplicity.

For something different, Churck yeager's combat sim was quite good... complete with envelop windows that popped up and resplendant 16-color goodness.  It wasn't SWOTL, but it had kickin' ACM missions.

*S* and regards,
Jay.

God those were the days. I hope we never go back.   It was fun then though.