Author Topic: A Freakin .22 ..................  (Read 8599 times)

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2001, 08:34:00 AM »
Straffo, you missed the point entirely.  If its not a gun, then its some sort of other weapon.  Get it?  Its a behaviorial problem of society, not the weapon in hand.

BTW, anyone could gut you with a spoon pretty easily if they're angry enough...

straff0

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« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2001, 08:59:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Straffo, you missed the point entirely.  If its not a gun, then its some sort of other weapon.  Get it?  Its a behaviorial problem of society, not the weapon in hand.

BTW, anyone could gut you with a spoon pretty easily if they're angry enough...

Well I got it Rip ,it's just my "twisted" sense of derision  
btw it depend also of the size of the spoon I'm not afraid of an 0.22 spoon ,things are getting serious with metallic 2 inch spoon...


My previous answer (you will never see because of a server bloat on my end) was :

// start quote of a never posted post
It's not a problem of gun access or not,but more a problem of education.
// end quote of a never posted post

Even if we won't agree about gun control (but agree to disagree) I've yet to heard about a lone gun deciding itself to shot at someone.

But using the predicate that if you give gun to population they will protect themselve from invasion is plain wrong for me.
The exception are perhaps Swiss and Israel but it's in a well defined system with military trainig and not free access to weapon.

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2001, 09:14:00 AM »
Straffo, I am a proponent of more gun control laws only if they enforce the current laws on the books, with full term prison sentences being served, not some liberal lawyer hot-shotting it for a criminal, only to ge the sentence deferred and the criminal released with 6 months probation and a slap on the hand.  You see, we don't enforce the law with the laws we have, so what good would MORE gun control laws do? Nothing except make weapons less accessible to law-abiding citizens and accessibility to those who get them thru other channels would remain unchanged.

MrSiD

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« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2001, 09:22:00 AM »
The problem with gun control is that the criminals will always and everywhere have access to illegal firearms...

The bad guys find ways to get them even if theyre declared illegal. Btw: how many firearms are there in USA today? Lol.. the criminals need to steal only 1% of them to keep them supplied forever.

The first time I shot with an automatic handgun was with an unregistered Luger. No guncontrol was enable to prevent that (and we have pretty strict control here..)

One of my favourite phrases is: it's too late to pucker when the toejam is already in the pants.

I agree on the above posts: It's the sick individuals and the social problems that kill people, not guns. Social, racial problems. Lack of upbringing at home. Parents no longer take responsibility of their children and they go bad. We are raising a nation of zombies (it's called free upbringing while they should call it the zombie project.)

Offline R4M

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« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2001, 09:36:00 AM »
I will stay clear of the flames about the gun/no gun discussion...

I just say Its terrible and that I was shocked when I heard about this tragedy.  

This is happening too much lately (once, twice a year?). I sincerely hope that this doesnt happen again.

And indeed I think that the idea of the metal detector would be OK if the situation is so extreme ,and if kids are carrying weapons to the school.

[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 03-06-2001).]

straff0

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« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2001, 09:49:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Straffo, I am a proponent of more gun control laws only if they enforce the current laws on the books, with full term prison sentences being served, not some liberal lawyer hot-shotting it for a criminal, only to ge the sentence deferred and the criminal released with 6 months probation and a slap on the hand.  

Sure we have the same opinion about the way the law is applied (even here across the Atlantic we have the same trouble) but the balance is hard to do between over and under punishement

And we have to try to re-educate criminal before releasing them if event it works  

I've given computer courses in a jail during some time and since I'm not categoric about what to do to criminals.Some famillial history where absolutly awfull.
I've speaked with a guy whose father was a violent/jobless/alcoolic and the mother was a prostitute to help earning money and HE was given as a toy to some deviant adult !
How can this kind of guy not become criminal ?

 
Quote
You see, we don't enforce the law with the laws we have, so what good would MORE gun control laws do? Nothing except make weapons less accessible to law-abiding citizens and accessibility to those who get them thru other channels would remain unchanged.

That the drawback ...

All trouble of comprehension should be redirected to : http://www.systransoft.com  

Offline -ammo-

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« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2001, 10:13:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by fd ski:
I'm suprized that you would say something this stupid considering that you say you are a profesional soldier. But then again, I've seen what US military defines are "profesionnal" first hand.
 

As a 13 Year enlisted man in the USAF, I take a offence to that FD. I assure you that I am quiute the professional and strive to excell in all I do! I can also assure you that the US military on the whole does the same. And if you are indeed still living in the USA, You at the very least could say thank you to us  for the service we provide... Thank you very much.


Commanding Officer, 56 Fighter Group
Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Offline mrfish

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« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2001, 10:13:00 AM »
it isn't about the gun he would have used another weapon if not a gun anyway, and gun control would have only made it harder - it is the other prob that bothers me

i met a guy on a plane once that builds schools in vietnam and other 3rd world places- he was worried to go there at 1st but found that 10 years later the schools he designed were spotless. inside the kids were silent and respectful - they even helped maintain the schools because they knew they were so poor they had to keep the only one they'd get.

the schools he helped design in the states fell to ruin in a few years. covered with grafitti and abuse - littered with broken glass and hordes of disrespectful students walking around with their pants hangin around their ankles and mumbling some foul 'squeak this - nigga that stuff' with no teacher daring to tell them to watch their language - animals breaking anything that wasnt behind a shield or unbreakable glass....everything in lockdown and teachers just trying to make it thru the day

it is hard for a kid that is having probs to be thrown into this out of control culture where the teachers are just baby sitting and the students do what they please and can pick on a kid unhindered with nothing but scared adults letting them run wild - i went to school in the city and around 10th grade decided to just skip it and go to college- no one even noticed  

it is a shame that a country like the US no longer has the cohones to teach respect and empower their teachers

Moose11

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« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2001, 10:28:00 AM »
What I personally find frustrating in all of this debate and bickering is what our fine president said regarding the shooter.

 
Quote
President Bush, who was talking with reporters in Washington about budget negotiations, said he was "saddened" by the shooting, which he called a "disgraceful act of cowardice."

In no way do I condone what the kid did, and I do believe he should be responsible for his actions.

However, it has been stated that this was also a teenager who was constantly and relentlessly picked on. He recently had two skateboards stolen from him. For our president to dismiss his action with a comment such as the one quoted above... shows a complete lack of awareness.

Why was he picked on? Where were the adminstrators, the counselors, the teachers when it came to seeing that this kid was in trouble? My father is a retired English teacher/Guidance Counselor, and the plain fact is that the adults *are* aware of what is going on. They're not deaf to the gossip, and I'm sure that it was well known that this teen was not one of the more popular sorts.

He had a lot of anger in him, but this was a prevenative event! Schools are paying less and less attention to each individual student and problems that could be resolved simply by a chat with a member of the faculty go unchecked.

It's a sad day, but the handling of guns are not the problem in this case. It's how our schools are handing the children.

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2001, 10:34:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by nonoht:
sure so that's why there are many massacre in your school ???

excuse me, but your vision of cowboy way of life is toejamty... and i don't thing that with some guns, civilian would stop German Pnzr divisions durind invasion of FRANCE...

 When Germany with it's relatively small army and fewer (and less armed/armored) tanks attacked France, they already knew they would attack Soviet Union where they would need every single division there.
 Beside taking a country there is a question of holding it. Of course they knew very well that they will not need to keep many divisions in France. They probably expected that faced with danger from an enemy to whom french themselves showed no mercy in 1918, most french would:
 1. Fall on their backs and spread their legs;
 2. Help round jews and send them to the gas chambers - much good did surrender do them;
 3. Help germans fight british troops in Afrika and other places.
 Of course they were right.

 Armed and unarmed population caused quite a lot of problems to occupation troops in Russia - both Hitler's and Napoleon's.
 US of A did not gain independence because the miserable ragtag assembly that called itself Washington's army could ever stand to british troops on the field of battle. It did so because Britain could conquer but not occupy the territory where population was hostile and armed.
 What about Afganistan? It was not Stinger  missles that defeated us (at that time I lived in USSR) - it were bearded guys with chinese kalashnikov's and front-loading 0.75 muskets.
 What about japan having more advanced firearms then europe and completely eliminating them within a hundred years because it threatened the power of the samurai class to do whatever they wished with lower classes?

 When you have a weapon, it does not mean that you have to use it. It just means you have a choice to do so.
 If die you must, you may have control of over when and how.

 You may think you are a citizen - as long as nobody objects. You are really a serf.

miko

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 03-06-2001).]

Offline J_A_B

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« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2001, 10:36:00 AM »
Gun control isn't the problem.

Our broken school system is the problem.  Fix the schools so they actually do their job and don't single people out, and this problem will disppear.

You Europeans who think America's only school violence is gun-related should check the statictics.  For every 1 gun incident, there are several hundred stabbings, quite a few of which cause severe injuries and occasionally even death.   It's just that gun violence is the only type that recieves national attention.  I am the first to admit--America's education system is completely broken.

But guns aren't the problem.  They're a scapegoat for the REAL problem of broken schools.

J_A_B

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2001, 10:51:00 AM »
 
Quote
Come on DejaVu, what is the answer you would give to the parents of those kids, both those dead and alive? That the perpertrator was diddlyed up and the fact that he had such easy access to firearms is completely irrelevant? Should they go out and buy their kids guns so they can protect themselves, because "a man without a firearm is a subject and not a citizen"?

I don't pretend to have the answer. However,  I do know that "if it weren't for guns, there would be nothing to worry about" is not the right one.

Are more people in the US and/or UK killed by knifes in school than by guns?  Are more children beaten to death each year than are shot?  Ask youreself those questions, find an answer, then explain to anyone how firearms are to blame for everything.

My personal opinion is that too much time is spent nurturuing children.. trying to guide them.. trying not to hurt their feelings.. trying not to be insensitive to their needs.  When the time eventually occurs that someone does not do the above.. what will the response be?

AKDejaVu

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« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2001, 10:56:00 AM »
It's interesting that no one here has focused on what in the hell the REAL problem is here.

Of course it was exacerbated by easy access to a .22 handgun.

But then...it used to be in this country even MORE people had guns around, a lot, and we didn't have school shooting sprees.

Hell, my dad, bleeding-heart-liberal that he is, had a .22 rifle.

My grandfather, great uncles, and all their friends that lived on farms had rifles, shotguns, and usually a .22 pistol for "varmints," whatever those are.

But that was in a time where very rarely did you have both spouses working.  The term "latch-key kids" did not exist.

Now, everyone's so eager to "keep up with the Jones'" that they both work, and sometimes pull a lot of overtime so they can get that shiny new SUV.

And that's only if there are TWO parents, and not divorced, like over half of the population of the US is today.

We've stopped thinking of our families, and started thinking only of ourselves.  No wonder our children feel "disenfranchised."

And when something goes wrong, we try to blame anyone but ourselves.  Gun manufacturers, ID Software, teacher's unions, Democrats, Republicans, bus drivers, anyone but ourselves.

Gun laws are more strict in this country that they ever have been before.  And my post is not to discuss whether they are too strict, or not strict enough, but to point the finger at the REAL culprit...OURSELVES.

We need to spend a little more time wondering what Johnny is doing up in his room.  We need to spend a little more time thinking about what is good for our families and our children, and stop worrying about satisfying the child inside US.  

I'll be the first here to say it isn't easy.  I've got my almost-17 year old daughter living with me full time, and every other day I have my 4 year old too.

Every other day of my life, after 5pm, I am basically a slave to the whims of my children.  But that's okay...except for those rat-bastards who invented "Barney."  I admit to letting my 4 year old watch TV while I clean, cook dinner, serve dinner, do dishes, and do laundry.  But, other than that, I take my kids to the store to show them how to interact in societal situations, talk to them, and try and be a part of their lives.

Believe me, I'm no Mr. Rogers.  I've got more holes in my parenting than Doan's has little pills, but I at least give it a shot.

Now let's pretend my IQ is about 50 points lower, I'm a woman, I'm divorced (well, already there...), but have an "ex" who threatens me on the phone constantly, and a boyfriend who is a low-life scum, but because of limited time and a low self-esteem, is the only person I seem to be able to have a relationship with.

The "ex" doesn't want anything to do with the kid or kids, because they're busy running around to bars at night, and work during the day.  Plus, they've got a new sweetie.

Then my boyfriend wants my attention, and decides that I should raise my children the way he was raised...with a lack of interest and compassion.

I'm caught between a rock and a hard place.  And remember, my IQ and self esteem aren't up there in the "comfort" zone.

Now I'm a guy, and I'd rather have a girlfriend than a boyfriend, but I can see this happen all around me.  I think you know what I'm trying to say here.

It is a problem of society more than anything else.  I saw guns all around me when I was younger, and firearms and ammunition were a lot easier to procure than they are now.

We played "Army" constantly, had cap guns, really cool machine guns with cool sounds, and watched "Combat," "Rat Patrol," and anything else where people shot each other and blew things up.

But for some reason, the furthest thing from our minds was taking a firearm to school, and shooting everyone in sight.

And I didn't live in some Ozzie 'n Harriet type of home.  Just a normal, worried-about-bills, the occasional argument between parents, "clean up your room"  followed by "you guys just don't understand!" that sort of thing.

And don't think that living in Europe solves all these problems.

It's the same there.  There just aren't guns, so people use truncheons, chains, broken bottles, knives, rocks, and fists.  Guns are just a little quicker and cleaner.  I believe that European society gave us the first example of "punk rockers", who by their own admission were doing what they were doing because they felt lost, lonely, and seperated from normal society, and felt they did not belong.  Wonder what it would have been like back in the 70's and 80's if those folks had easy access to firearms.  Probably not too pretty a sight.

And I'm not even going to touch on the subject of Sporting Hooliganism.

We as a society, and by that I mean the global society, need to get out of our own tulips and back into the hearts and minds of our families.  

If a kid doesn't feel like he's unwanted, he or she might be less prone to getting attention by blowing away their classmates.  And while I'm not a psychologist, and I don't even play one on TV, I think you'd find that a large majority of them would say that that was a contributing cause in all of these incidences.  A cry for help, a cry for love, and an expression of being "disenfranchised", and wondering why they exist in the first place.

And don't think that simply putting a little blazer on your kid with a crest on the breast pocket is the answer either.  That is not an adequate substitute for love and attention.  They are some pretty sick little puppies out there in preppy land, and personally, I want my kids to be able to interact in this world, with all sorts of people from all walks of life.  

I want them to be able to have lunch with banking executives, but to have enough life-skills to be able to communicate effectively with people they meet in everyday life.

I have lunch with bank executives (when they pick up the tab!   ), but I also have enough people skills to be able to impress an African-American female, with 15 years experience in the public transportation system of the great city of Chicago, that I am not a heartless yuppie, and to take the time to show me, like a child, how to work the various ticket/transfer machines, how to read the schedule, what side of the platform to stand on, and how not to get lost.

For the Europeans in the crowd, and domestics who are not familiar with this type of individual, let me say that these people wake up early every morning with a smile on their face, eager to participate in another day of biting, chewing up, and the spitting out of pushy, uppity, yuppies clad in Brooks Brothers suits.

The French Foreign Legion would probably send officers on recruiting junkets to America to try and get these folks to become drill sergeants, if they weren't afraid that they would be too strict, and cause more desertions than they already have.

A lot of kids today have absolutlely no manners.  A lot of kids today are so lost, they don't know how to interact with people in stores, the police, transportation officers, clerks at utility offices, etc.  They've lost the ability to interact in an effective manner with those around them.  A lot of this has to do with a definitive lack of parenting, and taking the time and effort to teach their children to be polite.  That's hard to do when you're working overtime so you can get the shiny new SUV with the V-8 and the CD player.  

Maybe if the parents took an active interest in them, they would know they were loved.  If they felt loved, maybe they wouldn't feel the need to blow people's brains out.  They'd also be able to find their way from the airport to downtown, on a complicated inner-city transit system, because they were able to communicate politely and respectfully with someone who was willing to shut down their ticket booth, step out from behind the protective glass, take them almost literally by the hand, and say, "Look here honey, here's what you do..."

And really, in closing, it isn't just the trailer-dwelling element that is experiencing this problem.  Children of doctors, lawyers, and insurance executives too.  We all need to take a look out ourselves.  My mother worked full-time, and my father was working his way through graduate school and towards his doctorate.  I remember looking at the back of his head a lot as he studied and graded papers for hours on end, but he always found a little time to toss the football, go on a hike, or watch Jonny Quest with me.

So if you want to point a finger, stand in front of a mirror.  The longer we keep blaming this detachment of children on certain countries or gun laws, it will continue.  While other parts of the world may not experience as many schoolyard shootings as the U.S., I'm sure you'll find a lot of violence, drugs, and gang activity all over the world.

Young people in general world-wide are not too "solid" right now.  While that is certainly a product of youth itself, we should all work together to lessen the blow, and do what we can to make kids feel that they are wanted, and loved.

Sorry for making the post so long.  I was just concerned that no one had effectively put their finger on the main antagonist in this horrible nightmare.

Mk

Offline loser

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« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2001, 10:56:00 AM »
Gun control yes, but not an outright ban.  In Canada we have very, and i mean very, strict gun control.  The sad fact is that all this gun legislation did nothing to prevent a few very sick boys from gunning down their classmates in taber, alberta a few years back.


The problem i see is there is no answer.  Why didnt this watermelon happen , say, 20 or more years ago.  Is it violence on tv? Single parent families? Drugs? Gangs? Materialism? They stopped making cars with tail-fins? I dont see one specific problem here, and that is scary, becase the problem will only get worse

Offline NATEDOG

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« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2001, 11:07:00 AM »
It's all about
Love
Respect
and Education.
Show the children love, teach them respect, and educate them about right and wrong, and this crap wouldn't happen. When I was growning up, and I still am, if I did something wrong, I could expect to get spanked or grounded........ you know, what? I never did that wrong again. If a parent does that today, they get arrested for child abuse. My parents showed me love, taught me respect........ you never heard of school shooting back then. All the troubles started with this New Way to raise your children: let them express themseves, give them freedom, if they do wrong put them in time out.......... NEWS FLASH: TIME OUT DOESN"T WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! sometimes progression is taking a step back..... go back to the old way of life, and take care of your kids!

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