Author Topic: A Freakin .22 ..................  (Read 8510 times)

Offline Saintaw

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A Freakin .22 ..................
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2001, 11:10:00 AM »
Man needs no guns to be sick (Belgium has been quite famous a couple of years ago regarding Child-molesting...)

Maybe, we have no Guntotting teenagers, but we've got our share of Psychos...

BLAME CANADA !  

Saw
Saw
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Offline Eagler

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« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2001, 11:26:00 AM »
Mk10 225th = long version

Natedog = short version

<S> both

Eagler

(from one who was disciplined, on more than one occasion, with his father's belt, an event he tried his hardest to avoid repeating, a family tradition passed down to his two sons)
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Offline fd ski

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« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2001, 11:34:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by -ammo-:
As a 13 Year enlisted man in the USAF, I take a offence to that FD. I assure you that I am quiute the professional and strive to excell in all I do! I can also assure you that the US military on the whole does the same. And if you are indeed still living in the USA, You at the very least could say thank you to us  for the service we provide... Thank you very much.


4 years enlisted US Navy. Ran for my life in 97. Best thing i ever did.
What i've seen in my 4 years in most cases was far from profesional in any way shape or form.


------------------
Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF

Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998

Northolt Wing Headquarters

Offline Mighty1

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« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2001, 11:54:00 AM »
Not to be a Bush supporter on this but I have to agree that when someone  be it a kid or adult goes on a killing spree that they are being cowards.

There are no problems at a school that can only be handled with a gun. To choose a weapon shows no courage only weakness of the mind.

I saw where they said he was being picked on and I saw where the school did nothing to help but does that excuse him for his actions? Does that mean he had no other options but to kill? He could have refused to go to school or go to the police or the school board or anything else but kill.

There may be a lot of people who turned the other way instead of helping this kid but no matter what was or was not done at school killing is never the answer.

I have been reborn a new man!

Notice I never said a better man.

LJK Raubvogel

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« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2001, 12:03:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by fd ski:
I'm suprized that you would say something this stupid considering that you say you are a profesional soldier. But then again, I've seen what US military defines are "profesionnal" first hand.
 


First off, that comment was entirely in jest. Hence the little smiley thing with the tongue sticking out. Secondly, I see your service was satisfactory lol. Thanks for stereotyping the entire US military.

Gun control is a bad thing, and it won't prevent tragedies like this from happening.

Time to rebait my hook and throw it back out there  

Offline Tac

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« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2001, 12:09:00 PM »
"You have to be 21 to get even a .22."

Yet you can buy a 9mm carbine for less than 100 bucks, legally.

All a deranged teen has to do is get his redneck 22 year old friend or cousin or whatever to buy it for him. Or just take it from daddy's closet.


Offline Maverick

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« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2001, 12:40:00 PM »
Mk10... Right on target. (to use a shooting metaphor)

Eagler, the same. <S> to you both.

To those who think that laws will save society and the world as we would like to have it.

There are several laws that that kid broke during his cowardly act. Yes I mean cowardly.

1. Minor in possession of a firearm. In California especially this is a violation.

2. Minor in possession of a concealed firearm.

3. Theft of a firearm. He stole it according to the newspaper article today.

4. Minor in possession of a stolen firearm.

5. Bringing a firearm (or explosive device) onto a school campus. (Federal offense)

6. Murder, either 1'st or 2nd degree depending on the juries interpretation of the idiot's intent. At least 2 counts.

7. Agravated assault with a firearm. Multiple counts. At least one for every person wounded or in direct danger of the gunfire.

8. Aggravated Assault. Multiple counts (For everyone in the entire school. This may be downgraded to simple endangerment)

9. Discharge of a weapon in city limits.

10. Disruption of an educational institution during school hours.

There are others but they obviously pale in significance to the first 8 violations of current laws. There is no way any "rational" person could state that this kid didn't have knowledge that he was breaking most of the listed laws. (A lawyer might argue that, but I did state a rational person)

This indicates a high degree of intent to violate those laws. Of course it will not be his fault. It will no doubt be the guns fault and the "only solution" will be to make more laws that will be violated.

Folks, it has been stated by people with far more eloquence than I. It is the obligation of everyone who becomes a parent to be a PARENT! You cannot leave your kids alone for extended periods of time with only a TV or computer for company. Schools cannot raise your kids for you, absolving you of the obligation to instill your offspring with the values needed for a responsible citizen. Only parents can do that. By the time your kid is 6 or 8 years old they have become indoctrinated with the mores of your family values.

Schools are stuck with the task of taking the children you drop on their steps anmd trying to "socialize" them to living in a group society as well as giving them an education in "readin, writin and 'rithmatic". They cannot teach morals, religious tenets (outside of a parochial school), or the traits to live a "good life". That is the job of the family.

More laws are not the answer. Being a good parent is much closer to it. Even then you cannot prevent all problems. It is simply a fact that there are truly evil and warped people out there who are beyond all help from society and family intervention. All you can do is isolate them in some manner from the rest of society.

Here in my hometown there has been a recent hue and cry that the "zero tolerance" policies of schools are out of line as several kids have been arrested for things such as issuing a verbal threat to harm a person, class or school. Making a hand gesture similar to "pointing a weapon", drawing a picture of a firearm on a piece of paper, writing a fictional story of a situation similar to Columbine or Santee for a school assignment. The term "over reaction" has been used quite frequently for these situations. How far is too far in drawing the line in this situation? Is a zero tollerance policy a good idea? Didn't they have one in Santee??

There will be blame a plenty to spread around for this individuals acts. You can blame the school but remember this school has 1,900 students. Can you keep track of almost 2,000 indiviuals all the time? Without a means of seeing into the minds of the people around us, how can you predict with any certainty, that a problem is going to happen? How can you prevent it??

I have no idea myself and I was in the business of "protecting society" for most of my adult life. There simply is no guarantee of ANY society being safe and secure as long as people have the power of choice and free will. Do you really want the alternative??

Mav
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A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
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Offline Saintaw

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« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2001, 12:44:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Tac:
"You have to be 21 to get even a .22."



Apparently, you can be 8, and have a 9mm in your schoolbag...hmmm...

Saw
Dirty, nasty furriner.

Offline Lance

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« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2001, 01:02:00 PM »
It is extremely short-sighted to think that either banning guns or letting every Joe carry a gun is the answer to gun violence.  The fact is, nothing can deter a determined adversary once they have commited to act.  That U.S. warship that was bombed in the middle-east was bristling with guns, and yet it still was successfully attacked by a determined terrorist group.  I don't think these kids that have gone on these shooting sprees have been any less determined, and that is excruciatingly sick and sad.

At Columbine, those kids wanted to kill their percieved enemies and die in a blaze of glory.  They pointed a gun at their own heads and pulled the trigger after their murder spree, so why would a teacher with a gun at all deter them?  It wouldn't have.  So what about a teacher being able to kill them before they killed as many as they did?  No one can say for sure if this would have happened, but I dislike the idea of adding more bullets flying across a cafeteria full of kids -- especially when fired by someone with anything less than complete competency with a firearm under stressful conditions.

But not having access to guns at all isn't any sort of solution either.  People that are that determined to commit murder will do it, they will simply choose the next easiest method.  The Columbine killers did, in fact, try to blow up the school with several homemade bombs.

The real solution can only be found in trying to get these kids help before they reach the breaking point.  Better yet, to identify what in our culture or their environment is making these kids spiral towards an act of madness and taking steps to eliminate it.  Banning guns or arming the good guys does nothing to help the underlying cause of these actions.

Gordo

[This message has been edited by Lance (edited 03-06-2001).]

TheWobble

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« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2001, 02:06:00 PM »
Im not reading this whole list of crap, from what I have read its just a bunch of idiots using the misfortune of others to attack guns again, you people must go to bed praying for another school shooting so that you will have more ammo in yer anti gun cruisade...i think ill buy another pistol next week..of coure Being the average american im waaay over due fo a school shooting arnt I?

IF YOU WANT TO BLAME GUNS FOR PEOPLE GETTING SHOT, BLAME CARS FOR PEOPLE GETTING RUN OVER ....gee doesnet make much sense now doese it?   NO toejam! [/i]

[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 03-06-2001).]

Offline mrfish

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« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2001, 02:07:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by NATEDOG:
It's all about
Love
Respect
and Education.
Show the children love, teach them respect, and educate them about right and wrong, and this crap wouldn't happen. When I was growning up, and I still am, if I did something wrong, I could expect to get spanked or grounded........ you know, what? I never did that wrong again. If a parent does that today, they get arrested for child abuse. My parents showed me love, taught me respect........ you never heard of school shooting back then. All the troubles started with this New Way to raise your children: let them express themseves, give them freedom, if they do wrong put them in time out.......... NEWS FLASH: TIME OUT DOESN"T WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! sometimes progression is taking a step back..... go back to the old way of life, and take care of your kids!

exactly

Offline Bluefish

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« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2001, 02:29:00 PM »
Two thoughts occurred to me while pondering this melacholy event and the postings in this thread:

1. Guns: when I was a kid in the late 50's and early 60's you could buy a gun through the mail (there were pages of them in the Sears catalog), in sporting goods stores, at unregulated gun shows and any number of other places (and this was in suburban N.J., not in Dogpatch somewhere) yet these things simply didn't seem to occur back then.  I truly don't think that the availability of guns (in suburban America, at least) is really the issue with this type of incident; the guns were always there.

2. High School: One common theme that seems to run through these incidents involves student outcasts turning on their (perceived) student persecutors.  Kind of a ghastly "Revenge of the Nerds" with guns and bombs.

I personally had a great time in high school, but it seems that I may have been extremely fortunate in this regard.  Many people who become extremely successful in later life were apparently truly scarred by their high school years, and described them as a living hell, based largely on their treatment by their peers.  

It seems that since the advent of universal public education in the late 19th century we have created a situation somewhat unique in human history, wherein large groups of young adults in their most uncertain, confused and hormone-crazed stage of life are compelled to spend most of their time in almost a factory-like setting with only each other for company and with minimal adult interaction.  Such adult interaction that they have is principally in groups facing a somewhat remote teacher or administrator, and not on an individual level with adults who could be regarded as peers or friends.  I believe this lack of adult interaction is probably even more pervasive among loners and social outcasts, who do not deal with athletic coaches, faculty activities moderators and others outside the classroom setting.

In most phases of human history, people of high school age would already be working side by side with adults, in the fields or the house or the military or whatever, and learning how things really are in the "real world."  As an example, can you imagine the captain of the company softball team really being considered a Big Man On Campus around the average corporation?  Compare that to the situation in your average high school.  

In early 21st century America, students interact mostly with each other until they're out of high school (and possibly college) and into the workplace.  Without TRUE adult guidance, on a personal and daily basis, it's possible to imagine how high school could turn into a kind of adolescent "Lord of the Flies" with Beemers in the parking lot.

This situation is obviously not a new one (perceived persecution of the geeks by the popular has undoubtedly existed since the dawn of civilization) but recently it has been combined with other factors (extreme violence in the media, the breakdown of the family, etc) to create incidents like this one and Columbine.

Any of the educators out there have any thoughts on this?  It's been a depressingly long time since I was in high school, and I'm struggling to understand what somehow happened in the interim.

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2001, 02:50:00 PM »
No secrets here, straight A student moves to New Jersy at age 13.  Harassed, beaten up, called names for 2 years in Green Brook High School.  Grades dropped, I stopped visiting the rest rooms for fear of the beatings...why you ask?  Because I looked like a nerd and spoke with 'a funny accent'.  Two years of this abuse combined with parents divorcing and an alcoholic mother hardened me into a 'gang member' by age 15, complete with 3 home made tatoo's, a love to hurt someone with my fists, an anger management problem that would make Maslow want to do Disney scripts, and a chip on my shoulder the rest of my life. Had a gun pulled on me 3 times in 2 years (not school related directly, but still 'peer related'.)

Yep, High School is a VERY ugly stage of life we must endure.  For some of you it was peachy keen, but for those of us who had 'a funny accent'...you hardened us.  Thankfully I had parents that independantly still felt committed to raising their children with morals an values that helped me break the trend of violence that streaked thru me from grade 9 thru grade 12.

TheWobble

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« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2001, 03:18:00 PM »
Ya i remember Highschool as a place where people treated others with hatred for no reason at all, and where just becasue a person made ye contact with you ment it was time for a fist fight, the people who tried the hardest to get along with everyone and who had the best intentions were the the ones most persicuted...so basically HS awards those who are cruel and mean to others and puneshes those who just want to get along and those who just want to be left alone...i dont see where guns fit in there at all...by the time a gun shows up all it is doing is being part of the result, it wasnt part of the cause..if not a gun a knife a club a BOMB, fists..its gonna happen, its not the guns, its the people.

Seeing how LOTS AND LOTS of people were treated in HS bears a striking resemblance to how the Nazis treated and viewed the Jews.

Offline Fishu

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« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2001, 03:51:00 PM »
I believe that alot of this falls over the parents, not just the shooters, but others as well...
When someone goes shooting, there has to be bunch of other causes.

Like, why would kids take guns in the school?
they might be afraid other students and carries gun to possibly intimidate them whos been picking on him.

School isn't easy today, it might be worst chapter of life for some people.
I wouldn't wonder if someone gets nerve breakdown and next day is shooting people or he is at home, avoiding to go at the school.

Parents should be held in responsibility as well with things like these, not just the shooter kid parents.
If other kids causes someone to carry a gun to school, there must be some fault with those other kids parents.

To me, it seems that parents nowadays lets the school raise their childs and if something happens, its the schools fault ... or TV / Video games fault.
In some cases, I wouldn't mind bad to see some of these parents in the jail also.