Author Topic: Separation of Church and State  (Read 2878 times)

Offline FUNKED1

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Separation of Church and State
« Reply #60 on: May 08, 2005, 10:54:47 PM »
Here's one that did bother me - both sides of the gay marriage thing.  The government should not be legitimizing or fighting gay marriage.  Marriage is between two people and any churches or deities they choose to include.  No government interference needed.  When Bush announced he was supporting a constitutional amendment on this issue I just about blew a gasket.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2005, 10:57:24 PM by FUNKED1 »

Offline Nash

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« Reply #61 on: May 08, 2005, 10:56:39 PM »
You don't find the religious side of it problematic, why?

Because that is just one angle of it?

No no.... that was the entire angle of it.

The Congress doesn't get involved in a court's decision.... wake people up at night for a vote.... have the President book it from a vacation back to Washington on account of some little court decision.....

It was religion. In government. Clear as muthahfreakin' day.

Discount that, and we really aint got much to talk about.

Offline FUNKED1

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« Reply #62 on: May 08, 2005, 10:58:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
You don't find the religious side of it problematic, why?

Because that is just one angle of it?

No no.... that was the entire angle of it.

The Congress doesn't get involved in a court's decision.... wake people up at night for a vote.... have the President book it from a vacation back to Washington on account of some little court decision.....

It was religion. In government. Clear as muthahfreakin' day.

Discount that, and we really aint got much to talk about.


Again:  Americans Are Free To Make Political Decisions Based On Faith

And as Toad and I have shown, you didn't need to be religious or Republican to think Schiavo's life was worth saving.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #63 on: May 08, 2005, 11:01:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Sounds like the two parties were pretty well in agreement doesn't it? Hard to make this into a Republican thing.


OMG.... You think you know yer politics better than me, and yet say such a thing? Come on....

Offline Toad

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« Reply #64 on: May 08, 2005, 11:04:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
It was religion. In government. Clear as muthahfreakin' day.

 


Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. It passed handily; are the Dems in on this little "sneak religion into government" scam too?

But that's neither here nor there.

The point, unfortunately for you, is that Religion. In Government. in no way violates the First Amendment.

We're back to you using a pure Strawman Argument.

Now, you may be using it because you enjoy arguing. That's cool; but it's still a Strawman argument and accordingly not worth the candle.

Or you may be using it because you really just don't understand the First Amendment. It's been pointed out to you several times, so I won't bother. If you want to finally try to understand it, you might start here:

first amendment: an overview
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline FUNKED1

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« Reply #65 on: May 08, 2005, 11:06:46 PM »
I don't think it's technically a straw man argument.  He's just misunderstanding the Constitution.  And he's allowed to do that.  Hell there are people I actually know and respect who completely misunderstand the 2nd Amendment and the meaning of "general welfare".  :)

Offline Nash

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« Reply #66 on: May 08, 2005, 11:09:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FUNKED1
And as Toad and I have shown, you didn't need to be religious or Republican to think Schiavo's life was worth saving.


Absolutely not. You, and they, may think her life was worth saving.

Enacting unprecedented law, creating an unprecedented circus, based on what you personally think, about one case, out of millions, is insanity.

And that insanity was religious. And a law was passed based on religion.

Why you trying to act like it wasn't?

Offline Raider179

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« Reply #67 on: May 08, 2005, 11:12:36 PM »
Bush's Faith Based Initiatives are a clear violation.

Financial support of the churches (any of them) by public taxdollars is IMO unconstitutional.

Tax-Exempt status is enough help for them now they want taxdollars to help with all the social programs they "provide". What a crock.

Offline Nash

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« Reply #68 on: May 08, 2005, 11:17:48 PM »
Oh geeze... Toad....

First off... spare me trying to pretend that Schiavo was bipartisan. You know that aint the case, no matter how the votes shaked down.

Yes, the 1st allows freedom of expresion and freedom of religion.

But is that an acceptable excuse for making America a theocracy, for example? Because the leaders are allowed their religious freedoms?

The first, according to you it would seem, exempts the government from the peril of turning the US into a theocracy, based on the fact that the US government is granted the freedom to express religion.

I don't buy it.

Offline Seagoon

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Separation of Church and State
« Reply #69 on: May 08, 2005, 11:18:04 PM »
Oy what a mess,

1) You have a church adding an unbiblical requirement to church membership (and extending its mission to the sphere reserved for the civil magistrate)

2) Then you have a congregation "voting(!)" members "out of the church" rather than following any biblically prescribed methodology for church discipline such as Matthew 18 or 1 Cor. 5 Not to mention the fact that they didn't specify what sins the ousted members were committing that they refused to repent of (willyfully refusing to vote for Bush is not actually covered in the Decalogue).

3) Then to compound the problem, you have the ejected members bringing in civil lawyers in order to force a reversal of the decision  - which is actually the most ominous infringement on the separation of church and state in the article.

Guys, I know that many of you see this insanity as an example of why Christianity must be excluded from the political sphere, but I see it as a much clearer example of:

1) What happens when the bible is abandoned (lets face it, in this example "not even consulted" would be nearer the truth) as the guiding light for church order and mission.

2) The kind of thing that happens when politics, and social concerns are made the driving concern of the church rather than following the pattern set for the church in the great commission. And sadly its not just Republicans co-opting the church. Both parties "cynically" use churches for achieving their political ends.

The saddest thing is, that they have effectively abandoned a concern for men's souls and the eternal issues of life in favor of bickering over purely temporal concerns, as though the outcome of the 2004 election were more important than where a person spends eternity. Truly we have become so earthly minded we are doing no heavenly good. They'd do well to remember the underlying lesson of Shelly's poem, Ozymandius:

I met a traveller from an antique land,
               Who said--"Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
             Stand in the desert . . . . Near them, on the sand,
               Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
                And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
               Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
            Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
               The hand that mocked them, the heart that fed;
                  And on the pedestal, these words appear:
                    My name is Ozymandius, King of Kings,
                  Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
                  Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
                 Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
                 The lone and level sands stretch far away."


Let the Church be about the work of the eternal Kingdom, not frittering away her time with the petty politicking of passing earthly kingdoms.

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Nash

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« Reply #70 on: May 08, 2005, 11:31:13 PM »
Sorry, I don't think ya get off that easy.

Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
1) What happens when the bible is abandoned (lets face it, in this example "not even consulted" would be nearer the truth) as the guiding light for church order and mission.


Abandoned by whom? The Democrats attending the church?

Who abandoned what, here?

Really.

Quote
2) The kind of thing that happens when politics, and social concerns are made the driving concern of the church rather than following the pattern set for the church in the great commission. And sadly its not just Republicans co-opting the church. Both parties "cynically" use churches for achieving their political ends.
 

There it is again. "Both sides cynically using religion for political gain". But nobody... NOBODY....  can point out an example of how the left uses the church for political gain. It's like one of those things that gets said so much it becomes accepted.

I don't accept it.

Show me.

Quote
The saddest thing is, that they have effectively abandoned a concern for men's souls and the eternal issues of life in favor of bickering over purely temporal concerns, as though the outcome of the 2004 election were more important than where a person spends eternity. - SEAGOON


Who is "they"? Who are you talking about here?

Democrats?

I think not.

You think differently? Well then....

Show me.

Offline FUNKED1

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« Reply #71 on: May 08, 2005, 11:37:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
Enacting unprecedented law ... based on what you personally think ... is insanity.


So "what you personally think" is not a valid basis for legislation?  Legislators should ignore their own beliefs and feelings and base their votes on... what exactly?

Offline Nash

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« Reply #72 on: May 08, 2005, 11:44:13 PM »
Law.

The Constitution.

But that doesn't mean much nowadays, does it? I mean... Nowhere in the Constitution does it specifically mention the seperation of church and state.

Wow! What an epiphany.

Lets go to town.

Offline FUNKED1

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« Reply #73 on: May 08, 2005, 11:48:36 PM »
"Legislators should base their votes on Law."
That's redundant.

So let's try your second answer.

"Legislators should base their votes on the Constitution."

Please show how the federal Schiavo legislation was unconstitutional.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #74 on: May 08, 2005, 11:53:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
OMG.... You think you know yer politics better than me, and yet say such a thing? Come on....


OMG... you think a vote of 203-58 doesn't show what went on?

OMG.. the Senate passed it by voice vote;  that doesn't show you what went on?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!