Author Topic: EU just won't take "No" for an answer  (Read 2963 times)

Offline Wolfala

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EU just won't take "No" for an answer
« on: May 30, 2005, 11:53:51 PM »
I read through it, twice - and find it worthy discourse.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn29.html Article link

May 29, 2005

BY MARK STEYN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST


Following Sunday's vote in France, on Wednesday Dutch voters get to express their opinion on the proposed ''European Constitution.'' Heartening to see democracy in action, notwithstanding the European elite's hysterical warnings that, without the constitution, the continent will be set back on the path to Auschwitz. I haven't seen the official ballot, but the choice seems to be: "Check Box A to support the new constitution; check Box B for genocide and conflagration."

Alas, this tactic doesn't seem to have worked. So, a couple of days before the first referendum, Jean-Claude Juncker, the "president" of the European Union, let French and Dutch voters know how much he values their opinion:

"If at the end of the ratification process, we do not manage to solve the problems, the countries that would have said No, would have to ask themselves the question again," "President" Juncker told the Belgian newspaper Le Soir.

Got that? You have the right to vote, but only if you give the answer your rulers want you to give. But don't worry, if you don't, we'll treat you like a particularly backward nursery school and keep asking the question until you get the answer right. Even America's bossiest nanny-state Democrats don't usually express their contempt for the will of the people quite so crudely.

Juncker is a man from Luxembourg, a country two-thirds the size of your rec room, and, under the agreeably clubby EU arrangements, he gets to serve as "president" without anything so tiresome as having to be voted into the job by "ordinary people." His remarks capture precisely the difference between the new Europe and the American republic.

Sick in bed a couple of months back, I started reading A Declaration of Interdependence: Why America Should Join the World by Will Hutton, and found it such a laugh I was soon hurling my medication away and doing cartwheels round the room. Hutton was a sort of eminence grise to Tony Blair, at least in his pre-warmongering pre-Bush-poodle phase. Hutton is the master of the dead language of statism that distinguishes the complacent Europhile from a good percentage of Americans, not all of them Republicans.

That said, even as a fully paid-up Eurobore, Hutton's at pains to establish how much he loves America: "I enjoy Sheryl Crow and Clint Eastwood alike, delight in Woody Allen . . .''

I'd wager he's faking at least two of these enthusiasms. As for the third, Woody Allen is the man the French government turned to for assistance with a commercial intended to restore their nation's image in America after anger at post-9/11 Gallic obstructionism began to have commercial implications for France. In the advertisement, Woody said he disliked the notion of renaming French fries ''freedom fries.'' What next, he wondered. Freedom kissing?

Despite the queasy mental image of Woody French-kissing, I'm with him on that one: If you don't like the phrase ''French fries,'' there's a perfectly good British word: ''chip.'' It conveniently covers both the menu item, and what the French have on their shoulder. That the French government could think that an endorsement by Woody Allen would improve their standing with the American people is itself a sad testament to the ever-widening Atlantic chasm. And that Will Hutton could think his appreciation of Woody is proof of his own pro-Americanism only widens the gap by another half-mile.

But, having brandished his credentials, Hutton says that it's his ''affection for the best of America that makes me so angry that it has fallen so far from the standards it expects of itself.'' The great Euro-thinker is not arguing that America is betraying the Founding Fathers, but that the Founding Fathers themselves got it hopelessly wrong. He compares the American and French Revolutions, and decides the latter was better because instead of the radical individualism of the 13 colonies the French promoted ''a new social contract.''

Well, you never know. It may be the defects of America's Founders that help explain why the United States has lagged so far behind France in technological innovation, economic growth, military performance, standard of living, etc. Entranced by his Europhilia, Hutton insists that "all western democracies subscribe to a broad family of ideas that are liberal or leftist."

Given that New Hampshire has been a continuous democracy for two centuries longer than Germany, this seems a doubtful proposition. It would be more accurate to say that almost all European nations subscribe to a broad family of ideas that are statist. Or, as Hutton has it, "the European tradition is much more mindful that men and women are social animals and that individual liberty is only one of a spectrum of values that generate a good society."

Precisely. And it's the willingness to subordinate individual liberty to what Hutton calls "the primacy of society" that has blighted the continent for over a century: Statism -- or "the primacy of society" -- is what fascism, Nazism, communism and now European Union all have in common. In fairness, after the first three, European Union seems a comparatively benign strain of the disease -- not a Blitzkrieg, just a Bitzkrieg, an accumulation of fluffy trivial pan-European laws that nevertheless takes for granted that the natural order is a world in which every itsy-bitsy activity is licensed and regulated and constitutionally defined by government.

That's why Will Hutton feels almost physically insecure when he's in one of the spots on the planet where the virtues of the state religion are questioned.

"In a world that is wholly private," he says of America, "we lose our bearings; deprived of any public anchor, all we have are our individual subjective values to guide us." He deplores the First Amendment and misses government-regulated media, which in the EU ensures that all public expression is within approved parameters (left to center-left). "Europe," he explains, "acts to ensure that television and radio conform to public interest criteria."

"Public interest criteria" doesn't mean criteria that the public decide is in their interest. It means that the elite -- via various appointed bodies -- decide what the public's interest is. Will Hutton is a member of the European elite, so that suits him fine. But it's never going to catch on in America -- I hope.

As European "president" Juncker spelled out to the French and Dutch electorates, a culture that subordinates the will of the people to the "primacy of society" is unlikely to take no for an answer. And, if you ignore referendum results, a frustrated citizenry turns to other outlets.


the best cure for "wife ack" is to deploy chaff:    $...$$....$....$$$.....$ .....$$$.....$ ....$$

Offline Staga

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EU just won't take "No" for an answer
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2005, 12:07:50 AM »
Ahhh...

I think we have found the guy who herited Rip's "Cut'n'Paste" duty :)

What are your thoughts about it ?

Offline Staga

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EU just won't take "No" for an answer
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2005, 12:10:32 AM »
btw in civilized world "Chips" and "French Fries" are two completely different things and I have to question the writer's intelligence when he's mixing these two.

Offline Wolfala

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EU just won't take "No" for an answer
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2005, 12:14:49 AM »
But I love cut and paste...but save as works better when hunting around for boobies.

But I love a writer who can molest a metaphor with the best of'm.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2005, 12:19:47 AM by Wolfala »


the best cure for "wife ack" is to deploy chaff:    $...$$....$....$$$.....$ .....$$$.....$ ....$$

Offline Hangtime

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EU just won't take "No" for an answer
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2005, 12:17:39 AM »
If I might offer mine..

The author seems to have a nice case of the bellybutton at europe. Not much substance, and the point seems kinda phishy, but he's a heluva clever wordsmith.

I stand in aw(e) and may I add a 'schit'?
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Staga

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EU just won't take "No" for an answer
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2005, 02:17:07 AM »
Well that Steyn isn't as lost as it looks like:
"Nato will not be around circa 2015 - which is why the Americans are talking it up right now. An organisation that represents the fading residual military will of mostly post-military nations is marginally less harmful than the EU, which is the embodiment of their pacifist delusions. But, either way, there's not a lot to talk about. Try to imagine significant numbers of French, German or Belgian troops fighting alongside American forces anywhere the Yanks are likely to find themselves in the next decade or so: it's not going to happen."

:aok

Offline Wolfala

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EU just won't take "No" for an answer
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2005, 03:48:25 AM »
I enjoyed the nice piece about Cricket:

Excrept 1 -------

"if the media hadn't spent the last 3-1/2 years bending over backwards to be super-sensitive to the, ah, touchiness of the Muslim world -- until the opportunity for a bit of lurid Bush-bashing proved too much to resist. In a way, both the U.S. media and those wacky rioters in the Afghan-Pakistani hinterlands are very similar, two highly parochial and monumentally self-absorbed tribes living in isolation from the rest of the world and prone to fanatical irrational indestructible beliefs -- not least the notion that you can flush a 950-page book down one of Al Gore's eco-crazed federally mandated low-flush toilets, a claim no editorial bigfoot thought to test for himself in Newsweek's executive washroom."

Excrept 2 ---------------

"As for the wackiness of Muslim fanatics, well, up to a point. But, you know, we've been told ever since 9/11 that the allegedly seething ''Muslim street'' was about to explode, and for four years it's remained as somnolent as a suburban cul-de-sac on a weekday afternoon. Invade their countries, topple their rulers, bomb their infrastructure from the first day of Ramadan to the last, arrest their terrorists, hold them at Gitmo for half a decade, initiate reforms setting the Arab world on the first rung of the ladder to political and economic liberty, and the seething Muslim street gives one almighty shrug.

In October 2001 Faizal Aqtub Siddiqi, president-general of the International Muslims Organization, warned that the bombing of Afghanistan would create 1,000 Osama bin Ladens. In April 2003, Egypt's President Mubarak warned that the bombing of Iraq would create 100 bin Ladens. So right there you got a 90 percent reduction in the bin Laden creation program -- just by bombing a second country! Despite the best efforts to rouse the Muslim street, its attitude has remained: Start the jihad without me. The short history of the last four years is: They're nuts but not that nuts."



Excrept 3 -------------


"It's not the mobs, so much as the determination of the elites to keep their peoples in a state of ignorance. The most educationally repressive form of Islam, for example, is funded and promoted by Saudi princes who, though not as handsome as Imran, also spend a lot of time in the West -- gambling, drinking, womanizing and indulging other tastes that even the wildest night on the tiles in Riyadh just can't sate. Whereas most advanced societies believe that an educated population is vital to the national interest, many Muslim elites seem to have concluded than an uneducated population is actually far more useful. And, when you look at Saudi funding of radical madrassahs in hitherto moderate Muslim regions from the Balkans to Indonesia, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that they're having great success de-educating hitherto relatively savvy parts of the world.

This disaster took a combination of factors. We can't do much about Muslim fanatics; we probably can't do much about our self-worshipping vanity media whose reflexive counter-tribalism has robbed it of all sense of perspective or proportion. But we ought to apply pressure on the link between the two worlds: the self-serving elites who enjoy the privileges of the West even as they exploit their co-religionists' ignorance of it. That's just not cricket, is it?"


Smart cookie for sure.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2005, 03:51:26 AM by Wolfala »


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Offline Momus--

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EU just won't take "No" for an answer
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2005, 04:43:48 AM »
Wow, yet another factually flawed piece from one of the tame journos belonging to corrupt far-right anti-EU press baron and team Bush cheerleader Conrad Black.

Who would have thought it?

Offline BUG_EAF322

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EU just won't take "No" for an answer
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2005, 05:23:39 AM »
Im gonna vote no just because the euro screwed us up.

Im tired that our little country pays for other countrys to get better.

In spain they voted yes so probably they got better with the euro.

But it screwed in my wallet.

Banks admit they overrated the euro by 10%.
Do i see my money back? i guess no

Than all store prices slowly tuned up to old guilder prices so all gets about double the price.

Guess where they calculated correctly.

Yep that my salary.

Screw europe screw the euro.

We better get dollars.

Offline Holden McGroin

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EU just won't take "No" for an answer
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2005, 05:30:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
Screw europe screw the euro.

We better get dollars.


You must be an undercover American.  You had me goin' there when you mentioned the Guilder, but my guess is you're really from Illinois.
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Offline Staga

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EU just won't take "No" for an answer
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2005, 05:42:00 AM »
I wish Bug would get his dollar too... Bug You know that Euro is 30% more valuable than Dollar is when compared to situation couple years back?

Anyways voters like Bug are the problem;
They don't know what they are voting for but because they think either their government or EU somehow screwed them they will get their "revenge" this way.

Offline Fishu

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EU just won't take "No" for an answer
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2005, 05:48:01 AM »
Funny thing is that the revenge will just mess them up even more, this time by their very own hand. Excellent thinking.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2005, 05:51:37 AM by Fishu »

Offline mora

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EU just won't take "No" for an answer
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2005, 06:22:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
Than all store prices slowly tuned up to old guilder prices so all gets about double the price.


Didn't happen here. Infact many prices have come down recently.

I've been to Netherlands a few times after the switch to Euro. All the prices were considerably lower than here, and about the same as in Germany or any other country in the region. If the prices did indeed double, they were too low in the first place and inflation was inevitable, regardles of the switch to euro.

Offline Saintaw

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EU just won't take "No" for an answer
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2005, 06:47:40 AM »
Isnt the "Referendum" in the Netherlands only a "for info" vote? I thought the decision was up to the parliament?

Not sure, just asking.
Saw
Dirty, nasty furriner.

Offline takeda

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EU just won't take "No" for an answer
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2005, 07:00:07 AM »
In Spain, prices of most everyday stuff have doubled since the introduction of  the Euro.
1 Euro was about 170 of our old pesetas, but most shops, bars, retailers etc... used 1 Euro = 100 pesetas for their conversions.

Typical example: a coffee at a bar was about 120 pts, and they went straight for 1,20 Euro (so 200+ pts) and have climbed now to 1,40 or 1,50, more than doubling the price since the intoduction of the Euro.

But that's not the Euro fault, is just collective greediness and a de facto "reverse competition" among sellers, which as soon as someone raised their prices, followed suit ASAP.

Spain has benefited greatly from the EU in the last 20 years. Our road keeping, church restorations, bussiness starting incentives, R&D projects, etc... have been funded by Dutch, German, French and Brit people, but is well understood that now Poland, the Baltic states, etc... need the propping up more than ourselves, and we'll have to make do with what we have.

The parties opposing the EU constitution in Spain were the extreme-left, extreme-right and local nationalists. So, the result was about right considering that.