Spit remodel

[eskimo2]

Can’t we just have a Spitfires only arena for these folks?  

eskimo

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by MANDO
I consider the 1944 typh an excelent dogfighter.

1944 Tiff?

Might wanna check your dates try -
First flew 1940
Deliveries Sept 1941

The only differences between the 1941 and 1944 Tiff were a strenghthened tail, bubble hood, adapted to carry ord.
So to say our Tiffy is a 1944 plane is misleading, its still basically the same airframe and engine as the 1941 Tiffy. If it had a more powerfull engine or major design changes then I would say 1944 also, as it is it's a 1941 aircraft.

Would be a bit like saying if they converted a Mk1 Spit to carry a bomb in 1944 that made it a 1944 aircraft.

[MANDO]

Originally posted by Kev367th
If it had a more powerfull engine or major design changes then I would say 1944 also, as it is it's a 1941 aircraft.

It had more powerfull engine (7 lbs cleared) and major design changes (i.e. propellor). Of course, you dont want a 1941 typh in AH.

[thrila]

I wouldn't mind an early tiffie, not sure many LW peeps in the CT would.

I agree we have a 1944 tiffie, but it is hardly representative as the mainstay fighter for the RAF for '44.  The tiffie had a brief period as a superiority fighter combating 190 raids, before being employed as the RAF's primary fighter-bomber.  A spitfire or two would be nice to fil a '43, '44 gap.

[Kweassa]

It had more powerfull engine (7 lbs cleared) and major design changes (i.e. propellor).

 Not to mention the critical tendency to shed tails at high Gs is also solved.

[68DevilM]

Seafire mk 8

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by MANDO
It had more powerfull engine (7 lbs cleared) and major design changes (i.e. propellor). Of course, you dont want a 1941 typh in AH.

OK 3 engines were fitted to the Tiffs -
Sabre IIA - 2180HP
Sabre IIB - 2200HP
Sabre IIC - 2260HP dont think we have this.

The +7 boost was rated for 1hr, how long does ours last, which Sabre we have?

Re- Tail problems
Could hardly say that just because they added a row of fishplates to keep the tail together it makes it a 1944 plane, considering this was carried out 1942 as soon as the problem occurred.
Now if we have the Tiffy with the Tempest tail I might agree.

Would hardly say a prop change constitutes a major design change. Conisdering the major difference in performance was 150-200ft reduction in take off run. (http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/typhoonpropsf_1.htm)

If we had the IIC Sabre Tiffy with the Tempest tail, then yes I'd say 1944 also, as it stands it is essentially a 1942 plane.

[Krusty]

The tiffie had a long and troubled development. The fact that it was AROUND in 1941 does NOT make it a 1941 plane. It means it was being worked on. Consider the FW190. If you talk about the first version it's a 1939 plane, one might guess.

The reason the tiff is a late war ('44) ride is because it had far too many teething problems and was in limited use until later in the war, when they were able to train pilots to properly fly the bird, and were able to properly fix most of the defects.

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Krusty
The tiffie had a long and troubled development. The fact that it was AROUND in 1941 does NOT make it a 1941 plane. It means it was being worked on. Consider the FW190. If you talk about the first version it's a 1939 plane, one might guess.

The reason the tiff is a late war ('44) ride is because it had far too many teething problems and was in limited use until later in the war, when they were able to train pilots to properly fly the bird, and were able to properly fix most of the defects.

Not saying it's a 1941 plane, but 1942.
In fact it saw a lot of use from late 1942 onwards.

IF our Tiffy had the IIC Sabre and a Tempest tail I would agree 1943/4. But it doesn't.
Which Sabre we have, anyone know?

Anyway we're getting slightly off topic.
The Tiffy was not a dogfighter. What I was asking for was a few Spits to cover the 1942 to end of war period that are FREE. As it stands our last free Spit is a 1941/2 bastardised Spit 9. That leaves 3 years of Spit development in which they could have FREE models. i.e. Spit 8, 12 or as Dan said the 16.

It's not as though it represents major time in modelling them, most shared almost identical fuselages/wings. Only big difference would be in the flight model.

[Krusty]

Here's the thing... I was advocating not only a representative SpitV, but a representative Spit9. Spit9 was around til the very late stages of the war. Sure there were 14s, 16s, etc, but the 9 was the mainstay for spitfire versions for a long time.

I think that IF we had a decent spit9, we wouldn't need a 16 or a 21 or a whatever. The spit9 (when properly modeled) would keep the heat up from '42 to '44.

So we don't need a 16, if the "9" is done properly. Then it'd be a contender even in the later years. And for uberness, well we'd have a properly modeled "14" (which reportedly turned just about as well as a spitV did, but still had its high alt abilities, high climb rate, higher speed, etc etc).

[Kev367th]

Spit XVI had a few other things over the IX - bubble canopy, clipped wings appear to be the norm as opposed to unusual. Same goes for having 4x20mms, seems a lot more 'common'.

Prob with Spit 14 is it's perk cost, frickin ridulous thats its only on average 5-10 less then a Tempest.

Trying to give a mice mix of post 1942 Spits that would be free.

Mixing Dans and mine would seem to give -
I/II
V
VIII
IX
XII
XIV
XVI

Even I realise that's too many but it's a good starting point to whittle things down.
Is there a plane usage count anywhere, not how many have shot down what plane, but overall plane usage count?
Would guess apart from scenarios Spit 1's are hanger queens and that due to perk cost so are Spit 14's.
Something along the lines of plane has been flown number of times.

[Kev367th]

Actually having thought about it -

7 different Mks Spits isn't a lot for an aircraft that fought throughout the whole of WW2 in numerous theatres.

Considering that apart from the BoB and a few other occassions the Hurricane became more and more sidelined or changed to a different role.

So 7 different Mk Spits to represent a whole line going back to 39/40 and up to 1945 isn't really a lot.

Same would go for the 109 series. 190's less so.

I'd even be in favour of dropping the 14 out of the current lineup it's used that infrequently, replace it with a FREE Spit of similar attributes to a D9 or G10.
Have to keep the Mk1 for BoB scenarios.

[TrueKill]

wish they would have gave us the 190A3 or A4 but it didnt happen.

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by TrueKill
wish they would have gave us the 190A3 or A4 but it didnt happen.

I reckon theres room for them also, look at current FREE planes in German/US/Brit planesets that are 'fighters'-

190 x4
109 x5
110 x2
Total =11 ...Nice selection of early to late war

P40 x2
P38 x3
P47 x3
P51 x2
Navy x5
Total =15 ...Excellent selection of early to late war

Hurri x3
Spit x3
seafire x1
Tiff x1 (failed as a fighter, sent to ground attack)
Mossie x1 (threw it in as technically it's an FB)
Total =9 ...Good selection ealry war only.

Realistically the 110's and Mossie shouldn't be included, but this only makes things worse numbers wise. 9,15,8

US total does not include any new models (P51,47) which I am sure are on the way. Possibly add another 1 or 2 to the US total.

Include perk planes -
Add 3 to German Planeset.
Add 2 to Brit Planeset.
Add 2 to US planeset.

And people say theres no room for more Spit variants?
Maybe get 1 more Mossie (BIV) and Seafire (III) variant.
People forget that the Spit became the mainstay fighter of the RAF, we didn't have the variety the US did, so logically there would be quite a lot of Spit variants.
You could add a Spit VIII,XII and XVI, Mossie BVI and Seafire III and still be one less that the current U.S. set.

Of course the Russian, Italian and Japanese planeset are even worse off numbers wise, but at least have late war free fighters.

Just call it Aces U.S. High.
Come on HT time to start catering to your non U.S. customers of which I am sure there are many.

[Krusty]

Originally posted by Kev367th
And people say theres no room for more Spit variants?
Maybe get 1 more Mossie (BIV) and Seafire (III) variant.
People forget that the Spit became the mainstay fighter of the RAF, we didn't have the variety the US did, so logically there would be quite a lot of Spit variants.
You could add a Spit VIII,XII and XVI, Mossie BVI and Seafire III and still be one less that the current U.S. set.

I don't want to come off as argumentative (though I can be at times, this isn't one of them), however I disagree. Yes, the spitfire has many variants in real life. And yes it did fly throughout the entire war. And yes it was the mainstay of the RAF forces for a long time. However I disagree that this equates to a need for more spit variants. The thing with spit variants is that many were small-run specialized variants (was it the spit7 that had the pressurized cockpit, and never really made it into mainstream production? The spit 16, while it had a bubble canopy is essentialyl a spit14, which we already have. Etc).

With the spitfire, yes it served through the entire war. Yes it had many variants. However the majority of all spits were a select few categories. HTC had decided in the past which planes represent those categories. I think that the selection is a good one (albeit poorly modeled in my opinion). The SpitV is undoubtedly one of THE most important spits ever. I just wish it was an early spit, that didn't hover like a UFO and accelerate like a jug in a dive from 40k to the deck. The spit9 was one of the main forces keeping pressure on the new LW menace (the 190). It did a marvelous job, too! And then in the latest stages of the war you have the super powered Spit14, which is one of many similar-performing late-war spits, but I think a very representative on (not too many active spits had bubble canopies), despite the fact that it can't turn half as well as the SpitV, that it shares 90% of its airframe with.

So, when not considering AH's modelling, but when considering the spits themselves, the spitV is a must-have. The Spit9 is the advanced killer that keeps the odds even against the advanced later-war planes. The Spit14 is the latest-war ride that keeps the uber planes in check.

AH doesn't have them balanced, in my opinion. They're out of whack, so to speak. Perhaps because of this off-kilter balancing, people think the spits need more variants.

I say "nay, they need not more numbers, but they need more representative performance for their kind!". Were that the case I think we'd have NO arguments about needing more spits at all.

Erm.. Sorry for the long post.