Spit remodel

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Krusty
I don't want to come off as argumentative (though I can be at times, this isn't one of them), however I disagree. Yes, the spitfire has many variants in real life. And yes it did fly throughout the entire war. And yes it was the mainstay of the RAF forces for a long time. However I disagree that this equates to a need for more spit variants. The thing with spit variants is that many were small-run specialized variants (was it the spit7 that had the pressurized cockpit, and never really made it into mainstream production? The spit 16, while it had a bubble canopy is essentialyl a spit14, which we already have. Etc).

With the spitfire, yes it served through the entire war. Yes it had many variants. However the majority of all spits were a select few categories. HTC had decided in the past which planes represent those categories. I think that the selection is a good one (albeit poorly modeled in my opinion). The SpitV is undoubtedly one of THE most important spits ever. I just wish it was an early spit, that didn't hover like a UFO and accelerate like a jug in a dive from 40k to the deck. The spit9 was one of the main forces keeping pressure on the new LW menace (the 190). It did a marvelous job, too! And then in the latest stages of the war you have the super powered Spit14, which is one of many similar-performing late-war spits, but I think a very representative on (not too many active spits had bubble canopies), despite the fact that it can't turn half as well as the SpitV, that it shares 90% of its airframe with.

So, when not considering AH's modelling, but when considering the spits themselves, the spitV is a must-have. The Spit9 is the advanced killer that keeps the odds even against the advanced later-war planes. The Spit14 is the latest-war ride that keeps the uber planes in check.

AH doesn't have them balanced, in my opinion. They're out of whack, so to speak. Perhaps because of this off-kilter balancing, people think the spits need more variants.

I say "nay, they need not more numbers, but they need more representative performance for their kind!". Were that the case I think we'd have NO arguments about needing more spits at all.

Erm.. Sorry for the long post.

Spit XVI is a Spit IX with an American made Merlin.  Late versions, just like the IX had a bubble canopy but not introduced until roughly March 45.  

I don't care if it's an LFIXe or an LFXVIe.  Same bird, with one having a Rolls Merlin 66 and the other a Packard Merlin 266.  BUT!  It was the D-Day version and more often then not a clipped and strengthened wing to handle the two wing hard points along with the centerline hard point.  It was the ground attack Spit and optimized for the low alt world that AH is fought at.

The AH airwar isn't fought at 25K.  It's fought from about 15K down which is where an LFIX/XVI belongs.

Dan/CorkyJr

[Krusty]

Well, then going back to my arguments, we only need a spit9 that is representative. Perhaps the proper representation is an LFIX. I don't know. However I'd be against clipped wings. I've read a few sources over the years that say it added to top speed and roll but suffered at even medium altitudes.


P.S. Catering a model directly to AH's gameplay is cheating. Find the plane, make the plane right. Then where/how people fly it is up to them. If they want to fly only on the deck that's their business, but don't cater to it or you'll only give them that option (philosophically speaking).

[Guppy35]

These three.

Top covers 42-43.  

Middle covers 43-45 in the MTO, Pac and CBI.  SKinners heaven with that one.

Bottom one covers 44-45 ETO

Dan/CorkyJr

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Krusty
Well, then going back to my arguments, we only need a spit9 that is representative. Perhaps the proper representation is an LFIX. I don't know. However I'd be against clipped wings. I've read a few sources over the years that say it added to top speed and roll but suffered at even medium altitudes.


P.S. Catering a model directly to AH's gameplay is cheating. Find the plane, make the plane right. Then where/how people fly it is up to them. If they want to fly only on the deck that's their business, but don't cater to it or you'll only give them that option (philosophically speaking).

It's not catering to anything.  The reality is the Spitfire LFIX was the main production version of  the Spit IX series as the airwar was not being fought at high alt.

That it applies as well to AH doesn't mean it's catering.  Production numbers of LFIXs is so far beyond the F and HF versions there is no comparison.

And I have no idea where this resistance to a clipped wing Spit comes from.  I've got 20 years of dealing with clipped wing Spit XII drivers under my belt and at no point have any of them complained, said it hurt the plane etc.  The roll rate in combating the 190 was an issue and the performance loss at the alts the airwar was being fought was minimal.

Those XII drivers were the top scoring Spit drivers in the Fall of 43.  They sure didn't mind their clipped wings.  And it's a beauty of a Spit too

Dan/CorkyJr

[Kev367th]

Spit 16 wasn't essentially a Spit 14.
Spit 16 (1000+ made) had a U.S. Manufactured Merlin NOT Griffon engine, as the 14 (900+ made) had. Completely different animals.

Yup the Spit 7 was the high alt pressurized one (140 built I think, but not asking for a Spit 7 anyway).

Spit 8 (1943) was supposed to be the Mk 9 replacement (1600+ built)

Spit 12 (1943) was the low level version with the Griffon II engine that could catch 190s (100 made)

OK granted the Spit 14 (1944) is the one to keep the late war rides  in check....yet compared to the La7, G10, D9, and P51 it is the ONLY perked one.

So what you are saying is that there is no single Spit between the Mk 9 (1942) and the 14 (1944) that should be included?
Thats a 2 year gap!!!!!
What I am asking for is a free Spit(s) for the mid/late war years to fill that gap.
The current situation is ludicrous.

90% of AH fights are on the deck anyways!!!!
Not catering to anything, in fact by your reasoning the La7 shouldn't be in AH2. After all your catering to a crowd who like to fly a low alt fast aircraft where most of the furballs are - at low alt.
Sorry Krusty your original premise is half assed.

At a MINIMUM we should get the VIII and XVI, both as the LF versions. Or substitute the XII for the XVI or XIV, at least it would get used.

Dan - Wasn't the clipped wings in direct response to the 190s roll rate, i.e. to INCREASE the Spit roll rate?

[Guppy35]

Yep Kev, the clipped wing was to increase the Spits roll rate.

Pointing upward towards the three profiles in agreeing with you.  Minimum the LFVIII and LFXVI to go with the present 1942 Spit FIX we have.

Regarding the clipped wings again and hopefully to put to rest this BS about loss of performance.  From the RAF trials of a clipped Spit vs a Standard wing Spit.

"At all heights to 25,000 feet the rate of roll is considerably improved by the removal of the wingtips.  The response to aileron movements is very quick and very crisp.  Four dog-fights were carried out starting with the standard Spitfire on the tail of the clipped wing Spitfire.  On two occasions the clipped wing Spitfire evaded so rapidly in the rolling plane that it was able to lose the standard Spitfire and reverse the positions in about 20 seconds.  On the third occasion the clipped wing Spitfire was able to lose the  standard Spitfire.  The fourth occasion was at 25,000 feet and the standard Spitfire was able to keep the clipped wing Spitfire in sight.

The minimum turning circle of the clipped wing Spitfire at 20,000 feet has been increased by 55 feet .  This slight increase does not detract in any way from the fighting qualities of the aeroplane..."


So bring on that clipped wing Spitfire LFIXe and lets go LA7 and 190 hunting

That would be a clipped wing Spit LFIXe that served with 127 and 129 Squadrons in the pic below:)

Dan/CorkyJr

[Kev367th]

Naw bring on the Spit LF XII with clipped wings, then go Lala, and  Run-nine-oh clubbing.

So final list

I
LF V
LF VIII
F IX
HF XIV (Doesn't matter basically a hanger queen anyways)
LF XVI or LF XII

or replace the Spit XIV with a LF XII (at least it will get used), and leave the LF XVI in.
e.g.

I
LF V
LF VIII
F IX
LF XII
LF XVI

Much more balanced for the MA and gives free post 1942 rides.

Not much to ask considering the D9 was a 1944 ride of which only 700 were built, La-7 1944 also, the version most use (3 cannons) only 368 built. Yup that means there were almost more Spit 14's made than both combined, yet it remains the only perked one.
So as it's very rarely used, ditch it and go with the second list.

[Guppy35]

Quoting Jeffrey Quill, Supermarine Chief Test pilot on the clipped wing and Merlin 66 LFIX.

"Then at some in definate time in 1942, there seemed to be a change in the tactical philosophy on both sides.  It was rather as if, by some sort of mutual tacit consent between enemies, it was realized that the band between 30,000 an 40,000 feet was a silly place in which to have an air battle, and the fighting tended to drop down into the more practical regions roughly between 15,000 and 25,000 feet. I remember how, at the time, this trend interested me very much indeed.  It WAS CLEARLY REFLECTED in the LF MK IX(Merlin 66) with engine performance adjusted to the reduced height band.

IT WAS ALSO REFLECTED in the fact that, by removing the wingtips of the Spitfire, an improvement in lateral control could be achieved, but because it increased the wing loading and the span loading of the wing, an aerodynamic penalty was incurred at HIGH ALTITUDE.  Such a proposition was unthinkable in 40/41 but in 1942/3 the idea was ENTHUSIASTICALLY adopted  by squadrons in 11 group and the "clipped wing" Spitfire became a common sight in the sky."

Note  Merlin 66 LFIX introduced early 1943.  Clipped Spits in 42/43 a "Common sight in the sky"

Performance loss at high altitude, not at the 15-25K band the LFIX was designed for.

So lets have em

Dan/CorkyJr
And yes Kev I'd love a Spit XII considering my history with them, but I don't dare imagine the possibilty

[Kev367th]

Don't see why not Dan.
Spit XIV is so rarely used no-one would miss it if it were replaced with a FREE XII,,,AND IT WOULD GET USED.

Starting to lean toward the 2nd list heavily. (the sans 14 one).

Doubt it will happen also, can't have mere Spitfires competing on equal terms with P51's, Lalas, D9's and G10s.

Krusty - I'll bet I can find a lot of Spit Mks that were manufactured in close to bigger quantities that the La7 drivers 3 cannon version (368 built).

[jetb123]

I hope it will come. I would love to see a whole update to the RAF line. That would be soooo cool.

[Kev367th]

Ok quick list -

Mk - #'s made - date
VIII - 1652 - 1943
XII - 100 - 1943 (only 'rare' one requested, dedicated low level bird)
XVI - 1054 - 1944
XVIII - 300 - 1945 Really the last wartime Spit

Didn't include the obvious Mk V, IX etc. Other Mks come very close to matching the La7 3 cannon prod numbers.

Seafires
III - 1218 -1943
VX - 450 - 1945 (a 392mph Seafire lol)

No reason why we couldn't have the Spit VIII and XVI, and either the Seafire III or VX, all produced in more quantities the the 3 cannon LA7, in some cases MUCH more.

So Krusty if the current planeset is representative why do we have the Spit 14 instead of the 16?
Spit 16 introdued in the same year and manufactured in greater quantities.
Could it be Warbirds Spit lineup is identical so the current AH lineup is in direct competition?
Now's the time to get a step or two ahead of them.

[Krusty]

Well, first, I would like to say that calling my posts half-assed isn't nice.

And second, what the hell does the LA7 have to do with anything? It's modeled for how it flew. The fact that everyone flies it like they want goes hand-in-hand with what I said earlier "Make the plane. Model it properly, then let the people fly it however the hell they want".

You might be right. The spit14 might be a throwback from Warbirds. Maybe they just had a certain base of information and built from there.

However AH is not in competition with warbirds. Warbirds is quite dead.

To answer the question: No. I don't think we need anything between the 9 and the 14/16/whatever the perked ride will end up being. The real 9 was more than a match for most planes modeled in AH. Considering the fact that the major differences between 9 and 14/16/whatever are the speed, the climb, and the high alt performance (not considering LF), why make several differences with only minor speed changes? If you do that then every 190 from the A-0 to the A-9 is needed. They all had slight speed changes throughout their development, so they all must be unique, right?

All sarcasm aside, there's a point when a spit is a spit is a spit. There are marginal differences (not considering LF) between the mid war variants. And marginal differences between the late war variants. Timespan of 2 years or no, you only need 1 bird to represent it, in my opinion. I just wish that bird DID represent, but that's another issue.

I can see adding a spitV (I like that SpitVB idea!), a spit9 with 303s, and a spit LFIXe with 50cals. Because then that LF would fly like a totally different plane. Worth modeling.

But adding a 5, 8, 9, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, ... is not needed. In fact it would just "clog" the game, so to speak.

[Kev367th]

Sorry about the half-assed, was early in morning.

Ok-
Spit of any kind with only 303's would be yet another hanger queen like the Mk 1.
Current Spit has the 303/20 or 50/20 options.

Spit VB would be another hanger queen with our current Spit V being the max boost version.

Spit is a Spit - True, 109 is a 109 yet there a 5 of them, 190 is a 190 yet there are 4 of them.
So you have 9 free German frontline fighters up against 4 free (incl Hurri 1) frontline Brit fighters. So either the Germans wasted a lot of time, or the RAF fighter planeset is under represented. Even if you include the 2 Hurri 2's its still 9 to 6.

Every Spit Mk was either a response to a new German plane or an attempt to leap ahead.
So by your theory theres no need for 4x190s and 5x109s also? After all they were the Spits adversary.
If not are you saying that 3 free Spits are enough to cover 9 free LW models?
Remembering the 190D9 came out in 1944, and your putting a 1942 Spit 9 up against it, even a 1943 Spit 9 LF wouldn't catch it, thats what the XII's were originally for.

Speed and climb have become the dominating factor in the MA. Look at the rash of Lalas, D9's, G10's and Ponys, so the RAF shouldn't get the same or similar free performing aircraft also?
Apparently a free Spit 14 is too good for the MA, so we have to look at other options.

Yup Warbirds is dead, time to move on from the Spit 1,5,9,14 only setup, as they are hardly representative of a family of aircraft that flew from the BoB untill 1945.

Tell you what - take the free fighters from the Brits and Germans and pair them up, and post your list. Then we'll do a performance and historical opponent comparison.

Start is easy -
Hurri 1/spit 1 - 109E

[Krusty]

I'm sorry, allow me to clarify.

I meant "A spitVb that replaces our current spitVc -- which would no longer exist. Then a spit9 with 20mm and only 303s, no 50cal option, THEN another spit9 but an LFIXe with 20mm and only 50cals, no 303 option".

I also meant these in addition to the 14 (14/16/whatever the perk ride is).

I liked Dan/guppy's idea.

Also I don't like how you keep throwing out the numbers. Number of versions means nothing. Why, we have 2 zeros but an f4f4, an fm2, and f6f, 4 types of f4us. But the zeke flew throughout the war, the other planes didn't.

When talking about 109s you have the F4 the G2 the G6 and the G10. F4 was a short run. It wasn't there for too long. G2 came out and also lasted a short while. Once G2 came out F4s were phased out. Once G6 was the standard, the G2s were phased out. And so forth. Once G10/G14 (G14 was an attempt to standardize late models into the same package) came out the G6s started getting phased out.

But when a new spitfire was produced, it flew right alongside old spitfires. The SpitV flew on long after new models arrived. The Spit9 flew to the end of the war! So these planes were not simply phased out (RAF didn't have the numbers to match LW, they kept every plane in service that could still fly).

So what if the 109s have 4 competitive models? The spits have seaf spitV and spit9. That's only 1 less. (plus a perk ride that outflies a G10 easily).

As for 190s, we have the A-5 the A8 and the D9. Yes there are 3 of them. But that doesn't matter. We don't need to match them plane for plane. SpitVs were flying well past the time the IX came out. The IX was flying well past the time all those other variants came out.

I will admit that at first I didn't think we needed any spits at all. However I have rather grown fond of Guppy's idea for a separate LFIXe. I think it would be different enough in most ways to have a meaningful impact on gameplay.

[Kev367th]

Spit VB to replace our current V, yup lets further handicap the RAF.

Just as easy to have a Spit F IX with either gun package.

Spit 16 would never be a perk ride had a Merlin 266 not a Griffon.

Actually there are 4 190's (not 3) and 5 109's (not 4)

True old Spits flew right alongside the new ones, no need to ignore the new ones though.

Seafire is basically a Spit 5, so can hardly count it as a completely different model. If it was a Seafire III maybe, definately if a XV.

Yup the perked Spit 14 outflies most in the MA, but it's PERKED, was comparing free planes on both sides.

Try listing the German fighters and putting the equivalent performing Spit against them, you'll find you'll need the other Mks.
Just because Spit 5s and 9's flew throughtout the war doesnt mean we should be deprived of the Mks that were developed to counter a specific German fighter in the game.

e.g.
109E   - Spit I