Wanted Mature realistically inclined re-enactors

[TheBeeg]

Flyboy;
Thanks.  Let me say something about the MA and all the pro and con I've been reading about it since I came back.  From my perspective it has nothing to do with the arena, it's what the pilot does with it.  I just came from a sim where for almost 2 years I flew nothing but Bf109e or at best 109Fs.  Looked very real with trees, towns, roads, infantry to strafe etc. etc.  Guess what? It sucked and what people most complained about was the flight model.  I agreed but stuck it out.  Now back in AH2 I haven't heard one complaint about the flight modeling (ok maybe a couple small ones).  I believe that its' the best FM around under the premise that as a real life pilot I know that even I with over 4000 hrs. in "heavy" Cessna 150s and 172s would kill myself if I ever tried to fly the airplanes we have in here.  It's about the immersion factor and what the game looks like not about the airplanes for me.  I can enjoy the MA as well as the CT or any scenarios as long as things look realistic to me e.g. I don't like seeing a formation of B24s escorted by 190's but I don't have a choice because I like to play every day and it's only in the MA where I stand even a remote chance of being able to escort a group of B24s in my P38 or P51.  Also, believe it or not, I'm somewhat impressed with the discipline that most if not all show while on vox.  I left AH1 just as vox came out and back then nobody used it.  Conclusion; Nothing wrong with the MA as long as you're flying with a bunch of like minded individuals.  I most definetely will check out all the available scenarios.

ElCondor

Originally posted by Flyboy
Hi elcondor.

dont loose hope, i agree with you that the main arena has nothing to do with real WW2 combat. But the AH community do run special events that simulate real ww2 missions.

i find those events to be the Gem of the game. and you should give it a try.

[TheBeeg]

Thanks NoBaddy;

Yes, I'm up for TOD but I just hope that it's implemented better than the system in the sim I just left which provided us with full military hiarchies but provided too much latitude to squads who would or would not get with the master plan depending on how the CO's wife treated him that day.  Nothing wrong with rolling your own.  Frustration only comes when one tries to ram their style of game play down others throats.  Amazingly though there isn't any high command calling the shots I'm impressed with the way that many play in the MA and very unimpressed by the Napoleons who feel it necessary to choke the country buffer with their opinions and statements like "somebody post a mission"  What's wrong with their fingers is the only thing I can bring myself to think.

El Condor

Originally posted by NoBaddy
Welp, one of the most important things to remember is that the MA is a "roll your own" enviroment. Its purpose is to allow free-style game play. What you seek is better found in scenerios and snap shots...not the MA.

Additionally, ToD sounds right up your alley.

[TheBeeg]

Agree Morpheus.   The MA is what you make it.  As I said elsewhere TOD is a great idea and I can't wait but in my book to be successful it needs to follow a "true" military hiarchy and whomever is in charge needs to have the availability of a "virtual firing squad"  You can't run a military operation when people have the option to do this and not do that.  Unless the rules are as stringent as they would be in real life things would just deteriorate into the kind of situation I just left where it took me two years to rise to the rank of Oberst (Colonel) and yet I didn't have one bit of authority over anyone of lower rank.  Don't get me wrong, it isn't a power trip I'm talking about, it's just that if you have a military simulation without somebody giving and somebody taking orders then all you have is a bunch of huns running around in loin cloths with no purpose other than to kill whomever is in front of them.  Wars are won by channelling that aggression into a coordinated effort.  I hope TOD will simulate that or it will be deja vu time.  
Thanks
ElCondor
 

Originally posted by Morpheus
The MA is not now, nor ever was a place designed for WW2 Re enacment.

It is a place to partake in fighter combat... Ie Dogfighting...with ww2 planes.

It is not designed to be a controled enviorment. You fly what you want, when you want, how you want. And are to answer to no one.

As you may well know ToD or Tour of Duty which is in the works as we speak will be much, MUCH closer to the realities of WW2.

Mission planning, assignments, groups, wings, tactics, actual ranks... From air ground and sea... ToD will convey to the you the player, what WW2 was like as you play it.

[TheBeeg]

Eskimo2;
Your post if very interesting and I'll read it all.  However something struck me that I think is very important in getting along with people in this game.  I notice that you list where you live.  You'll notice that I do also.  My reason is that I want to meet and play with anyone with whom I can have a truly personal relationship.  What you mentioned about meeting face to face with other members of your squad is an excellent idea.  I've met a lot of great guys online but nothing is ever going to replace the kind of camaraderie you'll get if you can get to meet your mates face to face or at bare minimum know a little more about them than an 8 character nick.  No matter how much we want to BS ourselves, nothing takes the place of real human interaction and I suspect that a squad made up of people who know each other would be a much more rewarding experience.  So if you're location shows that you're in bum****, IA just because somebody told you that there were nasty ugly people on the internet, may I suggest you tell us where you really are and who knows you might find out that your boss is the bastage you've been shooting down regularly
 
El Condor

Originally posted by eskimo2
My old squadron was the Buccaneers; a squadron very different than most because we all (at first) lived in the same town. On a weekly basis, we would all meet for diner to go over our mission briefings. We would bring maps, written orders, etc. On occasion, some of us would even show up in authentic WWII Army Air Corps uniforms. Sometimes our original CO would have a lesson planned on a particular tactic or aspect, complete with props. We would end the evening by driving home and flying our planned missions. Before RW or VOX, we would make a 12+ person "conference call", to be used as an in-flight radio.  When our CO passed on, one of our members stepped up for the job; he was a retired fighter pilot.  

Our missions would typically start with the conference call.  When everyone was in the call and online we would start in a hanger, taxi out one by one and line up wing tip to wing tip in a perfect row along the runway.  We were all assigned to 4-ship elements and would taxi out in order and take off in pairs in our elements, loop around the field picking up a pair or element on each lap.  We would fly in formation and observe strict military radio protocol.  
You would hear something like,
Leader: “Blue flight, right to 270 line abreast”
His wingman would reply, “Two”
The second element leader would reply, “Three”
His wingman would reply, “Four”
We spent forever training on how to make all kinds of turns that would either reposition us or keep us in the same positions and we kept pretty tight formations.  As a squad we were often terribly ineffective because we spent so much time, effort and focus on protocol, position, and formation; we were, however the most authentic “looking” and “sounding” squad that I have ever seen.  

Often our missions were re-enactments of actual WWII air battles or missions.  It was not unusual to have a history lesson as part of our pre-mission meeting.  Sometimes the mission planner would email News Releases or Top Secret Information to the squad days before a mission.  

We often would write after action reports after a mission.

A particular SAR mission stands out.  
A Buccaneer intentionally flew deep into enemy territory, but in the middle of nowhere.  He then ditched and sent out a radio distress call.  We sent 2 C-47s with fighter escorts in to pick him up.  (A pick-up was to exit flight when the goon was stopped next to the downed pilot and then join as an observer.)  It took forever and we lost about half of our squad, but did manage to get the man out.

Landing from missions was also to military protocol.  In fighters or bombers we would fly past our base, peel off in pairs every 10 seconds to spread ourselves out and then land in pairs.  We wouldn’t exit until everyone was once again lined up wing tip to wing tip in a perfect row along the runway.  

Whitey

May you rest in peace.

eskimo

[TheBeeg]

Ghost, Brooke & Squire;
Thanks, will try your suggestions.
Beeg
aka ElCondor

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by TheBeeg
Eskimo2;
Your post if very interesting and I'll read it all.  However something struck me that I think is very important in getting along with people in this game.  I notice that you list where you live.  You'll notice that I do also.  My reason is that I want to meet and play with anyone with whom I can have a truly personal relationship.  What you mentioned about meeting face to face with other members of your squad is an excellent idea.  I've met a lot of great guys online but nothing is ever going to replace the kind of camaraderie you'll get if you can get to meet your mates face to face or at bare minimum know a little more about them than an 8 character nick.  No matter how much we want to BS ourselves, nothing takes the place of real human interaction and I suspect that a squad made up of people who know each other would be a much more rewarding experience.  So if you're location shows that you're in bum****, IA just because somebody told you that there were nasty ugly people on the internet, may I suggest you tell us where you really are and who knows you might find out that your boss is the bastage you've been shooting down regularly
 
El Condor

Most of our squad was recruited from R/L as aviation buffs.  Whitey sold is on Warbirds (96ish) and taught us how to fly online.  A few were found who already lived in the area and flew WB.

eskimo

[Sikboy]

It has been mentioned upstream, but I thought it would bear repeating. If you  have your Friday nights free, you should try to hook up with a "Friday Squad Ops" squadron. Just start a thread here:

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=60

telling people what you're looking for some squad will probably jump to get you. I'm sure the Shillelagh Squadron would have room for you if you want to fly with them, however the Shills probably lack the level of organization you're looking for.

In the end you will probably be best served starting your own squadron, but just keep FSO in mind, since I really think it would be the best environment for your squadron to thrive.

-Sik

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by TheBeeg
Agree Morpheus.   The MA is what you make it.  As I said elsewhere TOD is a great idea and I can't wait but in my book to be successful it needs to follow a "true" military hiarchy and whomever is in charge needs to have the availability of a "virtual firing squad"  You can't run a military operation when people have the option to do this and not do that.  Unless the rules are as stringent as they would be in real life things would just deteriorate into the kind of situation I just left where it took me two years to rise to the rank of Oberst (Colonel) and yet I didn't have one bit of authority over anyone of lower rank.  Don't get me wrong, it isn't a power trip I'm talking about, it's just that if you have a military simulation without somebody giving and somebody taking orders then all you have is a bunch of huns running around in loin cloths with no purpose other than to kill whomever is in front of them.  Wars are won by channelling that aggression into a coordinated effort.  I hope TOD will simulate that or it will be deja vu time.  
Thanks
ElCondor

I agree with most of what you said. Not that, that matters much.

In my humble opinion ToD will either live or die based on finding a happy medium between rules/regs and fun.

a "true" military hiarchy and whomever is in charge needs to have the availability of a "virtual firing squad"  

I can tell you right now, if I see this as a part of ToD, my stay will be short lived. That entire statement gives no idea for "fun".

Ok what is fun?

Obviosly thats a loaded question. Fun can be anything to anyone.

Maybe some enjoy the thought of being ordered about vigorously by some over weight,47 yr old gas station attendant who lives his on line life as a supreme general in the virtual world of Aces High. I personally do not.

The ultimate say in what goes on with ToD,  should reside with HTC. I will bet the family farm that no one player will have the right nor ability to "order" someone to your  virtual "firing squad". If, by the slim chance, that is the case... you wont find many players there.

[TheBeeg]

Ahhhhhh my friend, now you give me food for additional discourse.  You've brought up some points which have often been on my mind.
1. "FUN" - Personally I hate that word strictly from the perspective upon which I look at these sims.  To me they are a vehicle to re-enact an extremely ugly human condition - War.  War is not fun.  War is an ugly and deadly business into which ordinary men are thrust.  How these ordinary mortals survive within this horrible condition is what I'm interested in.  My enjoyment in playing comes from being as realistic and true to what these real men must have experienced and not solely from the act of simulating the destruction of human life.  My enjoyment must come from utilizing the lessons of history and the human condition to relive history through the proper use of the tactics and strategies available to these men.

2. I've had many a thought about those fat 47 year old non-credentialed nitwits who have absolutely no idea of what war is or how to best lead men in battle living out their fantasies at night by ordering others to horrible flaming deaths.  However, I think I have a solution for a simulator like what I envision the TOD arena to be in AH.  What's necessary is that the publisher  totally control the high command of each side.  How?  By canvassing for and "hiring" for hard money people who have the necessary credentials e.g. strong military background in the appropriate field or other provable life experience as temporary part time consultants.  These people would then be charged to recruit likely capable candidates from the player base to act as lower echelon commanders who would in fact have the authority to execute (ban) anyone not playing within the rules.  All candidates would need to be screened thoroughly, as you would any prospective employee, to verify their capablity to handle the job at hand and to show the necessary maturity and business skills which would prevent them from abusing the power given to them.  I wouldn't have any problem, and in fact would suggest, that resumes be posted listing each candidates true identify and credentials and allowing the community to vote on their preference.  However as you state, the ultimate control must remain in the hands of the publisher.  Anyone who tells you that a player based control of a war game simulation works, without some kickass rules from the publisher, is living a fantasy.  I just left a place where this is supposed to work and my experience was that it was full of jobless Napoleons who wouldn't  take advice from a Norman Schwartzkopf or even Mommy or Daddy.  Undoubtedly there are some dedicated people trying to do their best but their efforts are totally screwed up by unrespectful adolescents of all ages.  Give me total structure and control in a military simulation or it's just an other shoot-em-up.  

El Condor

P.S. Nothing beats following a leader you truly respect.

Originally posted by Morpheus
I agree with most of what you said. Not that, that matters much.

In my humble opinion ToD will either live or die based on finding a happy medium between rules/regs and fun.

 

I can tell you right now, if I see this as a part of ToD, my stay will be short lived. That entire statement gives no idea for "fun".

Ok what is fun?

Obviosly thats a loaded question. Fun can be anything to anyone.

Maybe some enjoy the thought of being ordered about vigorously by some over weight,47 yr old gas station attendant who lives his on line life as a supreme general in the virtual world of Aces High. I personally do not.

The ultimate say in what goes on with ToD,  should reside with HTC. I will bet the family farm that no one player will have the right nor ability to "order" someone to your  virtual "firing squad". If, by the slim chance, that is the case... you wont find many players there.

[Toad]

Originally posted by TheBeeg
How?  By canvassing for and "hiring" for hard money people who have the necessary credentials e.g. strong military background in the appropriate field or other provable life experience as temporary part time consultants.  These people would then be charged to recruit likely capable candidates from the player base to act as lower echelon commanders who would in fact have the authority to execute (ban) anyone not playing within the rules.  

El Condor

P.S. Nothing beats following a leader you truly respect.

Don't suppose you could suggest any outstanding candidates for such a job to HT?

Yourself maybe?

[Grits]

This isnt war, its a game.

[Halo]

Amen.

[Tumor]

Originally posted by Morpheus
No, its the way it (THE MA) was designed. So simulate WW2 fighter combat.

Your being narrow minded,  if you want to re-create WWII tactics and Operations, you can.  It's been done.  Fighter Combat is nothing more than a piece of the pie, and you don't have to have a map of Europe or the Pacific to fly with a group that want's to do that.

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by Tumor
Your being narrow minded,  if you want to re-create WWII tactics and Operations, you can.  It's been done.  Fighter Combat is nothing more than a piece of the pie, and you don't have to have a map of Europe or the Pacific to fly with a group that want's to do that.

No I am not. I am telling it like it is. HT himself said it. ToD is otw for those who want to be real life imaginary WW2 pilots. The MA always was to simulate dog fighting. Did you see what HT said?

I understand the fact that anyone can do what they want in the MA. But while you have this great new squad forming up to "re-enact" some battle.... The rest of the MA will be rolling La7s, Niks, Spits and anythign else to come and ponce on them. What's so historical about that? Nothing.

The MA was never meant to be historical. If it was, we'd have had axis vs allies, a rolling plane set and it would have failed miserably like the last bunch who tried it.

ToD is coming for those who want that kind of thing. And not just throwing people in to a server either. Its going to be an organized and orchestrated arena. Missions, air bosses, CO's, ranks that will allow you more authority.

There's an ass, for every pot. HT's just making sure he's got one of every seat. Smart move.

I personaly can't wait to see what ToD is like. I doubt it will be able to keep me occupied and away from the MA for long... I dont like long flights, with no kills. I am here for the fight. But once in a while that kind of thing is a nice change of pace... Which is why I enjoy the squad ops from time to time in the special events arena. I am sure I will enjoy ToD from time to time as well.

[TheBeeg]

Absolutely not.  Closest I've been to combat is reading about it.  I have no credentials to fill a job as I've described.  Under the assumption that TOD is to be as close a simulation to being a combat airman in WW2 and not the run of the mill arena where as others have stated we have a game vs. a truly strategic combat simulation then and only under those circumstances, the kind of candidate I'm talking about would be someone with legitimate credentials.  Since some people might have a problem understanding what I'm talking about or just want to argue for the sake of arguement, I'll elaborate.   The kind of person I'm thinking about could be a retired military officer with extensive study in combat tactics and strategies and preferrably actual combat experience.  Somebody whom if you met him in person would immediately earn your respect.  Somebody whose credentials are clear and unimpeacheable.  One thing I've learned in 6+ years playing these sims is that respect is as rare a snow in June when the only thing you know about an individual is an 8 letter nick.  People have the tendency to be extremely rude and just plain ignorant when they have no fear of being seen for what they really are and will definetely not follow orders which is necessary if a true war game.  Again, this assumes that TOD would be such if not then it don't matter one hoot.

El Condor


 

Originally posted by Toad
Don't suppose you could suggest any outstanding candidates for such a job to HT?

Yourself maybe?