Author Topic: Nash....at Charon's request (Read 2689 times)

Nash · « **Reply #90 on:** June 11, 2005, 11:34:13 PM »

When Toad's feet were held to the fire, he ends up going ballistic - shotgun style. To an extent that you really aren't certain what it is he supports and does not support after all. I'm sort of amazed that he didn't mention the moon landing conspiracy.

A couple of things are telling.

The fact that when these very issues were raised a couple of years ago, the people who raised them were drowned out by a chorus of "shut up." Today, it is as if Toad is the sole champion of a failed policy. Everyone else (and believe me, it was overwhelming) have seemed to just.... well I don't know.

Interesting to me, at least.

We're not even into the 6th month of a 48 month term, and already the watermelon is starting to hit the fan and hit it but hard.

It's gonna be just as damned interesting to reflect back on "but you don't KNOW what he was thinking" types of arguments as it is to reflect back on the "Saddam will nuke our freedom" arguments.

Anchors away.

Thrawn · « **Reply #91 on:** June 11, 2005, 11:57:17 PM »

Toad you are being inconsistant.

If you don't have a problem with PNAC (legality asside) why did you post this?

"Guess I just don't believe they'd take us to war for a PNAC theory."

Toad · « **Reply #92 on:** June 11, 2005, 11:58:31 PM »

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Originally posted by Nash
It's not like I think that you're expecting a response by me to what you've written.

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Yeah, I was. But it fits that you choose not to.

Nash · « **Reply #93 on:** June 12, 2005, 12:01:28 AM »

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Originally posted by Toad

Yeah, I was. But it fits that you choose not to. [/B]

Toad, you have to focus. I'll reply to whatever you want. The topic of your choosing. But I can't reply to a hundred of them with any meaning.

Toad · « **Reply #94 on:** June 12, 2005, 12:08:26 AM »

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Originally posted by Charon
I DON"T BELIEVE THEY DELIBERATELY LIED ABOUT THINKING WMD WOULD BE FOUND.

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Neither do I; thus my participation.

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You have to decide for yourself if WMD was more important, equal or less important than the other factors. I have made my decision - for now.

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Look at Perle's quote; notes akin to Himmler's or Heydrick's:

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If you say would we have taken this action in Iraq, if the only purpose had been to try to bring democracy to Iraq, I think the answer is no. We didn't even consider using force to bring democracy to any other Arab country. But the combination of Saddam Hussein -- who had made war in the past, who had weapons of mass destruction, who was an avowed enemy of the United States-- When you put all of that together, that was a very powerful case for the action we took.

I think that contradicts what you try to establish with the other quotes.

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I mean hell, doesn't that call for some critical analysis of our leadership, it goals and motivations?

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Yep. Note that I didn't vote for Bush, this being one of the considerations.

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Shouldn't you now start questioning that "presumption of innocence?"

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Actually, shouldn't one of the people with influence, resources, money and access to the halls of power being starting to question? Where' Soros on this particular issue? How about spending a little money here?

I seriously doubt if there's a single AH BBS participant with the clout to start anything.

I've previously stated that if evidence can be shown I'll support impeachment and further punishment.

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Similarly, if we do have bigger plans for the region I would like to know about them and know what it's going to cost moving forward in lives and dollars.

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You're an American right? Lived here all your life? Do you REALLY think the people and/or the Congress would allow any other such military action unless in direct retaliation for a major attack on us?

In other words, how do you view the mood of the country towards war in general right now?

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My life’s mission isn’t to convert you Toad.

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Convert me to what? To a willingness to suspend my belief in innocent until proven guilty?

Nash · « **Reply #95 on:** June 12, 2005, 12:12:57 AM »

Jeeze, you are gonna regret this Toad. Charon, the floor is yours.

Toad · « **Reply #96 on:** June 12, 2005, 12:15:20 AM »

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Originally posted by Nash
When Toad's feet were held to the fire, he ends up going ballistic - shotgun style.

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Really? Do tell. Just where did I go ballistic - shotgun style.

You throw so much stuff out at once it's not easily answer in the short, glib, I'm-so-cool one-liners you prefer. Or maybe I'm not good at those. Sorry.

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To an extent that you really aren't certain what it is he supports and does not support after all.

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That may well be true of those with a short memory or a selective memory... or for those that try to pigeonhole me into a category they've created in their own minds.

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Today, it is as if Toad is the sole champion of a failed policy.

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Well, here's the challenge. Prove that isn't another of your strawmen by:

1) defining the "failed policy" specifically and

2) show a few quotes of me supporting it

Go for it, strawmeister... oh wait... I'll bet you just can't be arsed to show this to be more than just another strawman.

Toad · « **Reply #97 on:** June 12, 2005, 12:16:56 AM »

I doubt it. But go ahead an take yourself out of it; that doesn't suprise me either.

Thrawn · « **Reply #98 on:** June 12, 2005, 12:25:18 AM »

What changed your mind Toad to now believe that Bush wouldn't lie?

*Turns on the way-back machine.*

"But I think the WMD are there and if they're found on the 91st day I will cheerfully pay on the 90th but I'll still know I was right.

Now, if it gets into the 6 months or a year range...... I'll be looking at Bush in a whole new light.

But, as I've said, time will tell and I'm a patient man.

Geez, 10Bears.... you think a sitting President would look right into a camera and lie? Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!. I share your outrage. "

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80932

Nash · « **Reply #99 on:** June 12, 2005, 12:33:30 AM »

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Originally posted by Toad

2) show a few quotes of me supporting it

Go for it, strawmeister... oh wait... I'll bet you just can't be arsed to show this to be more than just another strawman. [/B]

No no no, I actually can be arsed. You know I can.

I actually just did some checking. Just now. Trust me Toad, we don't want to be taking a walk down memory lane with respect to your views on the war. I enjoy a good toe to toe, but this would get out of hand.

And I don't mind folks making predictions based on beliefs. It's all good. It's just that when those predictions fail, and those beliefs are still clung to despite the reasons for clinging onto them vaporizing that I have a bit of trouble understanding.

Toad · « **Reply #100 on:** June 12, 2005, 12:37:13 AM »

On your earlier question:

First of all Thrawn, it's a reply to a long post of Nash's. Second, the "they" refers to Bush and the Congress, not to PNAC. In that context, I think that answers your question.

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Originally posted by Thrawn
What changed your mind Toad to now believe that Bush wouldn't lie?

Again, what I've asked for in this thread is some sort of proof he lied before jumping on the bandwagon with the rest of yas.

Asking for some evidence is apparently construed as being a total Bush supporter. That is an external thing that I can't help you with.

Would Bush lie? It's possible, but I don't think it's probable in this case. Were he to be shown as having deliberately lied or falsified intel, I would support his impeachment and further punishment. I guess that makes me a Bush supporter, right?

Toad · « **Reply #101 on:** June 12, 2005, 12:42:07 AM »

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Originally posted by Nash
Trust me Toad, we don't want to be taking a walk down memory lane with respect to your views on the war.

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Please do. I'd enjoy seeing you twist what I said and replying. Please quote enough to give context.

Yeah, I supported the war. I said I have. I think you'll find right in there, in that early period, that I also said I extend them my trust but that the WMD reason would have to be validated at some point. Otherwise it would have to be viewed as an unjust war.

I also remember a letter I wrote to all the Senators and Reps. I believe you got a copy of that one, right? Typical of a Bush supporter would you say?

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It's just that when those predictions fail, and those beliefs are still clung to despite the reasons for clinging onto them vaporizing that I have a bit of trouble understanding.

Good. You'll be able to show me the "beliefs (that) are still clung to"?

I'll check in tomorrow. Big day tomorrow and I'm late to bed already.

Nash · « **Reply #102 on:** June 12, 2005, 12:43:40 AM »

I'm not going to do it Toad.

Toad · « **Reply #103 on:** June 12, 2005, 12:44:15 AM »

Pffffffffffft.

I know why too.

Nash · « **Reply #104 on:** June 12, 2005, 12:47:24 AM »

Yah alright.

Sleep it off.