An interesting read regarding the middle class

[oboe]

Not long.   If you read it I hope you get something out of it.   Does a much better job of describing the issues that concern me than I ever could.  

Losing Our Country

[MrBill]

Link not requiring registration.

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0610-24.htm

[joowenn]

So we are all doomed huh?

[Steve]

Left wing blather.  Nothing to see here.

[oboe]

And there's good reason to believe that a society in which most people can reasonably be considered middle class is a better society - and more likely to be a functioning democracy - than one in which there are great extremes of wealth and poverty.

Do you think this is true or false, Steve?

[Wotan]

Steve is right, even your quote is leftwing nonsense...

He makes all sorts of stupid claims:

Working families have seen little if any progress over the past 30 years. Adjusted for inflation, the income of the median family doubled between 1947 and 1973. But it rose only 22 percent from 1973 to 2003, and much of that gain was the result of wives' entering the paid labor force or working longer hours, not rising wages.

Following WW2 the American economy exploded. Competition among workers in this country drove up the cost of labor as companies had to compete for the best workers.

As the our economy became more global no longer are workers just competing against each other here.

Supply and demand at work.

But the wealthy have done very well indeed. Since 1973 the average income of the top 1 percent of Americans has doubled, and the income of the top 0.1 percent has tripled.

Why is it you leftist are always worried about what the rich guy is doing?

Since 1980 in particular, U.S. government policies have consistently favored the wealthy at the expense of working families - and under the current administration, that favoritism has become extreme and relentless. From tax cuts that favor the rich to bankruptcy "reform" that punishes the unlucky, almost every domestic policy seems intended to accelerate our march back to the robber baron era.

It's not a pretty picture - which is why right-wing partisans try so hard to discredit anyone who tries to explain to the public what's going

Straight out of the Dems play book?

Rich guys keeping us all down...

[DREDIOCK]

quote:
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And there's good reason to believe that a society in which most people can reasonably be considered middle class is a better society - and more likely to be a functioning democracy - than one in which there are great extremes of wealth and poverty.
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Ummm isnt that almost the same arguement communism makes?

Only there everyone is supposed to be equal.

Its just that some people are always more equal then others:)

[lazs2]

yep... no matter what the commie paper said or didn't say..

When I was growing up the "middle class" didn't have cell phones or computers or navigation systems in their cars or even color TV's much less cable and HBO and blockbuster...  The average house was like 1000 square feet and you took your lunch to work or school in  abrown bag and if you traveled it was a big deal... You probly blew 3 tires on a 3000 mile round trip.

Houses had one bathbroom and often no airconditioning.... few if any cars had air conditioning.    Your toys were inexpensive and often you had to make up your own games.  People got fired on the whim of whoever was in charge for whatever reason.   If you wanted to be in sports or scouts or whatever the parents had to think hard about wether they could afford it or not.

People didn't get bypasses or heart transplants.. they just died.  Cancer meant death.  

And no.... I don't think that a huge middle class with little hope of getting rich is good for the country oboe... You really have to think about it... do you really want socialism for this country?  

lazs

[Maverick]

Oh yeah, things are so bad!!! They are so bad that a kid growing up on SS and VA death bennefits can retire at under 50 and be traveling the country full time, going where we want when we want and all on a "blue collar" retirement. Yep Oboe things are really bad here. I'm sure I'll just have to roll over and curl up in a ball because I can do what I want like that....

[Jackal1]

The trouble , in this sense, started about the same time that the real "workers" and the true backbone of our country were forced out of existence. By this I mean such things as the small family farms that had been handed down from one generation to the next. The taking over of the small, independent business world and making it damn near impossible to compete with large cooperations and big business in a lot of cases. The forcing the small man out by the use of what would be called illegal monopolies in simplier times.
  Now we have a class of folks who doesn`t know the actual meaning of the word "work".
  Along with  the forcing out of a lot of independents went hopes and dreams and also a large chunk of what made this country tick on a personal basis. That being pride in your work and your accomplishments.
  Now we have a large percentage of people who do jobs that amount to nothing. The shuffling of documents from one department to another, the changing of funds from one place to another and so on. When you take a close look at a lot of these places you will find that they actualy do nothing, serve no purpose and produce nothing other than the transfer of funds from one place to another and so on and so on. No production of actual products and no input into our country. Just 'make do" work that neither contributes to our country in any way , nor contributes anything to our society.

[lazs2]

You had to be allmost mutilated in order for a dentist to suggest braces.... Maybe one kid in a thousand had em... Now... every other kid is in dire need of 5-10k worth of mouth metal that is probly only partially covered by insurance and the poor downtroden "middle class" don't even blink at the cost.

You couldn't afford to get fat.   Now we have to diet.

The second car... or even the only car was seldom new.   It was usually 10 years old and... cars needed valves at 60k and an overhaul was 100k.  

lazs

[oboe]

I am thinking about it - I guarantee it.   Thats why I post stuff here - to gather opinions to digest, exchange ideas, etc.   It might take me a long time to make up my mind though...I tend to be slow on the uptake.

I am just not sure people here understand the proper terms political systems.   For example, communism and socialism are distinctly different from each other, are they not?   But I seem to be often labelled a commie or a socialist.   How could I be both?
I suspect its as the story says - I give the impression that my views are to the 'left' of many posters here, and they respond by name calling.   To the extent that occurs I'm starting to doubt the benefit of posting here.

Drediock, no I don't think that's the same argument communism makes.   True, I think communism makes the argument that all share the resources equally (and I agree it doesn't work out that way in practice - some people still have more power and wealth than others).     The argument for a large middle class doesn't preclude the existence of the lower class or upper class.   They would still exist.

Is socialism the only way to achieve a sizeable middle class?    I suspect its not.   For example, the author claims that "social norms that favor equality, strong labor unions, and progressive taxation" gave rise to the middle class which is in decline today.
Did that describe socialism?    I don' think it did, because I think you can have all three of those components in a capitalist society.
In fact we did in the US after WWII - do you think we were a socialist country in the 1940s, 50s, and 60s?

Your experience growing up in the middle class sounds similar to mine.  I remember our first color TV, our fist car with A/C, and flat tires were pretty common on our family car.     My family had little hope of getting rich, but they did have secure jobs and affordable healthcare, which I think fewer and fewer people have today.

[oboe]

I agree with Jackal.

Part of what Laz and Jackal are talking about is simply the march of technology though.   The middle class has this stuff now because it is affordable for them now.   I don't think its because we are so much richer as much as it is because the things just became cheaper.     No way I could afford one of the first VCRs, but after a few years the proce became low enough that I could get one.   Same for computers.   I don't see that occuring as a result of one political party dominating over another though.   That's just progress, and progress goes on no matter which party controls the government.

[Wotan]

I am just not sure people here understand the proper terms political systems. For example, communism and socialism are distinctly different from each other, are they not? But I seem to be often labelled a commie or a socialist. How could I be both?

communism:

A scheme of equalizing the social conditions of life; specifically, a scheme which contemplates the abolition of inequalities in the possession of property, as by distributing all wealth equally to all, or by holding all wealth in common for the equal use and advantage of all.

socialism:

A theory or system of social reform which contemplates a complete reconstruction of society, with a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor. In popular usage, the term is often employed to indicate any lawless, revolutionary social scheme. See Communism, Fourierism, Saint-Simonianism, forms of socialism.

Who told you they are 'distinctly different'?

It like saying you are 'progressive' rather then 'liberal'. It's the same damn thing for all practical purposes.

Steal from those who have and give it to those who don't, redistribution of wealth.

So when the author claims that 'social norms that favor equality, strong labor unions, and progressive taxation gave rise to the middle class which is in decline today' that is socialism and its not true.

Not only is his premise wrong in regards to what gave rise to the middle class he is an advocate for a left leaning political philosophy that embraces what I am sure he would call 'good socialism'.

He argues about the slow growth in middle class wages but ignores the fact that real prices for goods and services have declined.

Even the poor in this country aren't as 'poor' as they were 25 / 30 / 50 years ago. What bunches his panties is the 'income gap'. He feels, like most leftists, that the 'rich' ought to subsidize the poor so we can all be 'middle class'.



It's nothing more then egalitarian nonsense.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by oboe
I agree with Jackal.

Part of what Laz and Jackal are talking about is simply the march of technology though.   The middle class has this stuff now because it is affordable for them now.   I don't think its because we are so much richer as much as it is because the things just became cheaper.     No way I could afford one of the first VCRs, but after a few years the proce became low enough that I could get one.   Same for computers.   I don't see that occuring as a result of one political party dominating over another though.   That's just progress, and progress goes on no matter which party controls the government.

one thing that jackal is talking about that the author is clearly bashing is the Bush tax reforms for the "rich" oops did I say rich?  yes because that's what they are classified as.  But truth be told they are small business owners who file their taxes that way.  He also gave them alot of tax incentives to expand their business.  Business expansion equals more jobs ect.  

This babble about tax cuts for the rich is getting SOOOOO OLD!  It has been pointed out time and time again that poor people don't pay taxes.  I AM POOR I DON'T PAY INCOME TAXES.  AT THE END OF THE YEAR THE GOVT PAYS ME.  HOW CAN I GET A TAX CUT?

Please move off of this subject allready the midle class are doing fine.  As long as they don't max out all their credit cards and take out 3 mortages on their homes (POINT IN FACT: home ownership especially among minorities is at an all time high) then they will strive just like they allways have.