Author Topic: Suggested, complete Spitfire lineup for Aces High  (Read 6515 times)

Offline Crumpp

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3671
Suggested, complete Spitfire lineup for Aces High
« Reply #105 on: June 30, 2005, 06:20:13 AM »
It does not give detailed instructions on it's use, Neil. It is only a couple of teils and not a complete manual.

It just says it can be used.  

I grabbed it because Bf-109E documents are rare.

Here is something interesting:

http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/jg26/white4_peter.htm

An Bf-109E3 with a DB601N motor in mid-1940.  Willing to bet the Germans had an engine exchange program for the DB601N.  I've got the 1939 instruction sheets on that motor as well.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Neil Stirling1

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 105
Suggested, complete Spitfire lineup for Aces High
« Reply #106 on: June 30, 2005, 06:34:51 AM »
Hello Crump, I found were the page you posted comes from its here,

http://www.bf109.com/manuals.html

This is an aircraft maintenance manual.

I have searched the PRO long and hard and asked the experts for original 109 E DB 601 N performance figures and so far nothing bar figs for the 109 T in William Greens book. Further more the issue is complicated by the derating of the DB 601 N.

I have started a thread regarding the used of 1.45 ata and the 601 a over at All about Warfare.

Neil.

Offline Crumpp

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3671
Suggested, complete Spitfire lineup for Aces High
« Reply #107 on: June 30, 2005, 06:52:22 AM »
Great!  We do our best to get it sorted out.

I am looking for the Bf-109E performance curves I found.  The speed curve is in Radinger and Schick's "Bf-109 A-E".

That curve matches the +(12) Merlin Spitfire speed curve almost exactly.  

There is a stall speed issue I would like to discuss as well!

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Kurfürst

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 921
      • http://www.kurfurst.org
Suggested, complete Spitfire lineup for Aces High
« Reply #108 on: June 30, 2005, 07:19:26 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Neil Stirling1
Hello Crump, I found were the page you posted comes from its here,

http://www.bf109.com/manuals.html

This is an aircraft maintenance manual.


http://www.bf109.com/acrobat/bf109ehighgerman.pdf
The above manual for DB 601A notes the use

of 1.45ata 'Erhohte Kurzleistung' power - for 1 min
Further it notes 1.35ata 'Kurzlesitung' - for 5 min
on PDF page 11.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1120078013_109eemergency.jpg

The creator of that page notes for the manual :

"This is an original 100-page Luftwaffe Bf 109E manual (from 1939)."

Despite the evidence, Neil Stirling and Mike Williams deny that any boost higher than 1.3ata was used until mid 1942 (by when Emils long disappeared...).

I wonder if they have any proof of 1.3ata being the maximum allowed power or they just, automatically assume the worst figures for LW fighters, and best figures for RAF fighter.

So far it looks they have a mid-42 manual that lists it, and they assume that it was never used before. Such rationale would not be applied to RAF aircraft, of course.

On the MW/NS page, they of course compare the Emil on 1.3ata 'Erhohte dauerluistung' or 'increased continous' power..
no comment.They picked to two slowest tests of a prototype Emil, and the curve from the Kennblatt and cruise power - despite there is many other tests with better performance - they simply dismiss all of those.

Here`s one of them. It`s from the instructions of a Yugoslavian Bf 109E-3 .



They also simply dismiss Swiss, French and Soviet flight tests.
They refuse to show performance data with DB 601N, the best engine fitted to Emils before the Battle of Britain, with 20% more power and improved supercharger.

Mike Williams and Neil Stirling are comparing RAF aircraft at the highest boost ever used with LW running on the lowest boost ever used.

In their articles, admittedly with revisionist goal agains the avaiable literature, they compare :

109E on 1.3ata, maximum was 1.45ata, no DB 601N powered versions..
109F - oh that`s missing, I wonder why :D
109G - 1.3 ata, maximum was 1.42ata
109K - 1.8ata (curves for heavy fighter version too), maximum was 1.98ata

Always the worst data they can find.
Not only that, but there are worst cases of purposeful manipulation, ie. if you look at the Emil article, Mike and Neil are compared the Merlin and the DB 601A. Altough the literature is full of notes about the better altitude performance of the DB engine, they 'revised' the fact, and used rammed power figures for the Merlin (rammed power increases engine output above rated altitude because of the high-speed motion of the plane), and static output (ie. no ram) for the DB engine, to convince the crowd all those books were lying.

The part I don`t understand, the reason of this bigot zealotry and using of the lowest tools to push forward the agenda.
The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site
http://www.kurfurst.org

Offline Kurfürst

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 921
      • http://www.kurfurst.org
Suggested, complete Spitfire lineup for Aces High
« Reply #109 on: June 30, 2005, 07:35:22 AM »
Back on +12 lbs boost again :


It was interesting to comply the pilot stories of MW in regards of +12 lbs boost for Spitfire Squadrons.

Sqn/ First mention of use of boost :

611 Sdqn. March 1940

19 Sqdn - 26 May 1940
54 Sqdn May 40
74 Sqdn. May 1940

41 Sqdn - July 1940
610 Sdqn: July 1940
 
64 Sqdn. August 1940,
616 Sqdn. August 1940,
602 Sqdn August 1940
603 Sqdn. August 1940

66 Sqdn September 1940
72 Sqd September 1940
152 Sqdn September 1940:
603 Sqdn. September 1940
603 Sqdn. September 1940:
609 Sqdn., September 1940

222 Sqdn. October 1940:

+ 92 Sqdn. +234 Sqdn., no date mentioned.

Curiosly enough, there`s no mentioning of +12lbs boost in most squadrons early in the Battle.

If we rehearse the problems with 100 octane fuel from earlier on, it all cuts in well again.

The majority of Sqns (11 out 18)converted to 100 octane fuel during/from mid August and September, some in October.

[Two actions were immediately undertaken by the British War Cabinet in May to resolve the looming crisis. Firstly 87 octane fuel was deemed the primary fuel source to be used until further supplies could be discovered and delivered in sufficient quantities to allow the Merlin conversions to again take place. Those existing fighters already so converted (approximately 125) would continue to use what supplies of 100 octane were available, but all other fighters that had not been modified to continue with the use of 87 octane (of which there was more than adequate supply). The second action was for the British Government to contract the Shell Oil Refining Company to assist the British-controlled Iraqi Petroleum Company at Kirkuk to produce 100 octane fuel. This arrangement proved quite successful as production was quickly converted to 100 octane fuel.

The first Middle East shipment of 100 octane fuel arrived in Portsmouth on 12th August, with a further two deliveries in September and four in October.,  Although too late to allow widespread conversion for the use of the fuel the deliveries did ensure that from this point on Britain would not be lacking in 100 octane fuel levels. With the newfound supply RAF Fighter Command again embarked upon a Merlin II and III conversion to 100 octane use from late September, finally achieving 100% conversion of it's fighter force by the end of November in 1940.


http://www.allaboutwarfare.com/foru...owtopic=230&hl=




Though Mike and Neil propagetes  that 100% conversion happened before the battle of Britian already, they failed to show any proof of such an early and complete conversion - which appearantly did not materialize until August just like the complete conversion to CS props which they also claim without any evidence.

The most interesting issue is of course, why Neil Stirling holds back the 87 octane consumption of the Fighter command during the Battle. This would clear up the issue completely as with would tell the ratio between 87/100 octane usage.

Why would he hold it back if it shows that only 100 octane was utilized...?
The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site
http://www.kurfurst.org

Offline butch2k

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 238
      • http://www.allaboutwarfare.com/forums
Suggested, complete Spitfire lineup for Aces High
« Reply #110 on: June 30, 2005, 07:46:42 AM »
Kurfurst could you please poste the engine setting table as well ;) ...

As you know the Yugoslavian, soviet and Swiss a/c were not equipped with the DB601A-1 but with the more expensive DB601Aa. The power settings and limits of those two engines were not identical !!!

Just a quarter to a third of all Luftwaffe 109s were equipped with the Aa variant.

Offline Kurfürst

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 921
      • http://www.kurfurst.org
Suggested, complete Spitfire lineup for Aces High
« Reply #111 on: June 30, 2005, 07:46:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Squire
If you really want to get into muddy waters, you have several versions of each fighter a/c in the BoB as well. Hurricane I and II, Spitfire I and II, 109E-3, 109E-4 ect. Were there not 109E-7s at the closing stages in some quantity?....


There were also E-1s (with MG armament) and the E-4/N with the most powerful engine mounted the Emils, from the very begining of the battle in July - though Mike as usual claims it did not appeared until the battle ended, which is of course only he made up.

Basically, the LW had the E-1, E-3, E-4 and E-4/N in it`s fighter inventory when the battle commenced.

E-7s were seeing action from August 1940. The primary difference was the imporved nose spinner aerodynamics, and the ability to use droptanks.

A version of the E-7 was the E-7/Ns with the DB 601N engine appeared somwhere late in 1940, but I am not sure when production commenced. Though again Mike claims it saw service only pennypocket numbers, in reality it was produced in hundreds, see the contemporary Lieferplans (Mike and Neil saw those as well, but tends to be selective a bit).



Quote
I will say I think there tends to be too much "heated" debate over 5-8 mph or a small climb rate difference sometimes, any of the operational fighters in WW2 that saw hard use (like the BoB) would rarely hit their "test" #s anyways. If you are looking at a significant difference, thats something else. Its still interesting to have a look at it all, and I think we all learn something. I know I do.[/B]



Good points indeed. Probably there was no better match up between fighters than between the Emil and the MkI spit in the BoB. It`s almost a perfect match in every altitude, which is a rare thing in WW2, that`s why I don`t get this zeal from MW/NS to make such silly, manipulated comparisions that it wasn`t so.
The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site
http://www.kurfurst.org

Offline Kurfürst

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 921
      • http://www.kurfurst.org
Suggested, complete Spitfire lineup for Aces High
« Reply #112 on: June 30, 2005, 08:01:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by butch2k
Kurfurst could you please poste the engine setting table as well ;) ...


That one I don`t have, but  my take is the low altitude data to about 2.5km refers to the 1-min rating (1.45ata), which should give about as much. The rest shows the the normal WEP of 1.35ata, it`s a good match with Swiss data with the same engine.

The curve itself appears to be a mix of the performance with the low-alt 1.45ata and the 'normal' WEP 1.35ata with the 601Aa powered  Emil. Would you agree ?


Quote

As you know the Yugoslavian, soviet and Swiss a/c were not equipped with the DB601A-1 but with the more expensive DB601Aa. The power settings and limits of those two engines were not identical !!!

Just a quarter to a third of all Luftwaffe 109s were equipped with the Aa variant. [/B]


Yes, both LW (along A-1) and export version Emils had the same Aa engine. But there`s not that much of a difference between the A-1 and Aa in output, ie. 990 vs 1045 PD at SL (1.3/1.35ats limit).
1-min WEP being 1100 and 1175 PS (1.4/1.45ata).

But if that`s so, Mike should really update his site in which he claims LW did not use the Aa at all, for which he uses you as a source, see reference 98 (I guess it`s a very old post from you).

Even though the British report on the captured Emil he is also using clearly notes the DB 601Aa engine. ;)

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html

Though the qoute from you might go the way of the dodo, like it happened with the qoute from you about 1.98ata usage, which was present on his site for a while, but was deleted when it no longer fit him, and the DC engine and 1.98ata was declared 'non existant by him and appearantly, Neil.

Things like this selective using which makes me very critical about those articles and their authors, you see.
The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site
http://www.kurfurst.org

Offline Neil Stirling1

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 105
Suggested, complete Spitfire lineup for Aces High
« Reply #113 on: June 30, 2005, 08:03:43 AM »
Butch


Just a quarter to a third of all Luftwaffe 109s were equipped with the Aa variant.

Were these in service during the B of B?

Neil

Offline Kurfürst

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 921
      • http://www.kurfurst.org
Suggested, complete Spitfire lineup for Aces High
« Reply #114 on: June 30, 2005, 08:18:51 AM »
Neil,

Are the speed figures presented for the Spitfire Mk I in your article coming from some sort of flight test (I saw no such reference)
or
the claimed figures are just your own estimations/calculations ?

Do you think it`s a double standard to present the Merlin at rammed power and the DB engine at only static power as it is presented in your article?

Do you plan to expand the article by presenting the Bf 109

1, at full boost not cruise power
2, with every engine it mounted, DB 601Aa and DB 601N

with which information you just received?
The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site
http://www.kurfurst.org

Offline mw

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 160
Suggested, complete Spitfire lineup for Aces High
« Reply #115 on: June 30, 2005, 08:19:07 AM »
Hello Milo:  "Both 1.3ata on the DB and 12lb on the Merlin have the same limit usage restriction (5 min)."

Precisely!  :)  Please note what German data shows for performance of the Me 109 E at 1.30 ata:

Messflüg vom 7.11.38, 1.3 ata, 5,653 lbs resulted in 285 mph at sea level and 342 mph at 14,763 ft. Messung E.Stelle Bericht Nr. 2652/39 shows 280 mph at sea level and 342 mph at 14,763 ft. Recalculations of the test data at Augsburg from 14.10.39 gives 290 mph at sea level and 342 mph at 14,763 ft at 1.3 ata for a Me 109 E3. Trials of BF 109 E3 W.Nr. 1792 by Messerschmitt as reported in Meßprotokoll vom 16.2.39 resulted in a sea level speed of 290 mph at 1.3 ata. Kontrollflug vom 31.4.39 at 1.3 ata shows 299 mph at 2,132 ft. (which extrapolates to 291 mph at SL) . Also note that  curve charted from ME 109 E Flugzeughandbuch Flugleistungkurven, Höchste waagerechtgeschwindigkeit gives 287 mph at SL! ;)  





Mike
« Last Edit: June 30, 2005, 08:46:21 AM by mw »

Offline Kurfürst

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 921
      • http://www.kurfurst.org
Suggested, complete Spitfire lineup for Aces High
« Reply #116 on: June 30, 2005, 08:23:06 AM »


The above engine limitations posted by Mike williams are coming from the following Emil manual which I own :




Note the date of the dataset Mike Williams is using : it was authorized in OCTOBER 1938..

At that time, the 109E was not even operational in the Luftwaffe. Appearantly Mike Williams is using some temporary instructions for a plane that was still under development and testing in 1938.

The 1938 figures were of course superseeded in later manuals, and were increased.

As the following page from the 1939 Emil manual shows, the 1.3ata Mike Williams is using in his articles, was only the 'Erhohte Dauerleistung', which translates to 'Increased continous power' and was not the maximum power available from the DB 601A.



Mike Williams is appearantly comparing the cruise speed of the Emil to the Spitfire at overboost that came with the danger of engine failure.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2005, 08:57:54 AM by Kurfürst »
The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site
http://www.kurfurst.org

Offline butch2k

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 238
      • http://www.allaboutwarfare.com/forums
Suggested, complete Spitfire lineup for Aces High
« Reply #117 on: June 30, 2005, 01:24:16 PM »
Isegrim the latest chart is for an a/c equipped with the DB601 Aa engine, the later manual clearly stating that the 1.45ata setting is for "abflug" only, just the same as the DB 601A-1.
Those setting were no combat settings at all, and the several DB 601A (-1/a) manuals i own clearly state that it should be used only if really necessary as it put a lot of strain on the engine.

I would not consider them for comparison since their use was limited to very specific cases, like taking off heavily burdened.

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
Suggested, complete Spitfire lineup for Aces High
« Reply #118 on: June 30, 2005, 01:36:42 PM »
Hi Butch,

>As you know the Yugoslavian, soviet and Swiss a/c were not equipped with the DB601A-1 but with the more expensive DB601Aa. The power settings and limits of those two engines were not identical !!!

>Just a quarter to a third of all Luftwaffe 109s were equipped with the Aa variant.

Here's an overview of the range of power plants used by the Me 109E for the Battle of Britain time frame:

Ca. 75% of production (Source: Butch2k :-):

DB601A-1 (early type supercharger)
DB601A-1 (late type supercharger)

(Conversion from early to late type was possible. There's evidence for the use of the early type supercharger in the Battle of France and for the use of the late type in the Battle of Britain. I have no idea how the actual proportions were, though.)

Ca. 25% of production:

DB601Aa  (early type supercharger)
DB601Aa (late type supercharger)

(Same comments as for the DB601A-1 apply.)

1 Staffel at the beginning of the Battle of Britain, 1 Gruppe near the end (production sahre rapidly increasing towards the end of 1940):

DB601N

(Source: Petrick/Mankau's Zerstörer book.)

I have not analysed the Yugoslavian chart yet, so I can't comment on that. I haven't prepared a DB601Aa analysis yet, either.

Here's my current perspective on the Me 109E power settings and speeds:

http://hometown.aol.de/HoHunKhan/Me109TopSpeed.gif

http://hometown.aol.de/HoHunKhan/Me109E_DB601N.gif

Note that I haven't used the 1.40 ata, 1 min setting. As far as I know, it was not used for the Me 109E, and the engine chart is quite clear on that it was only to be used for take-off.

Apparently, it was possible to over-rev the DB601 above its full throttle height, though, but as this was not mentioned in the manual (and potentially harmful for the engine), I did not include that either.

Now I know that Mike has some data contradicting my conclusions, but the data on the French-captured Me 109E, the data from the German manual and the German data on the Me 109T are pretty well in agreement so that I'm reasonably confident that my analysis is fairly accurate.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline butch2k

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 238
      • http://www.allaboutwarfare.com/forums
Suggested, complete Spitfire lineup for Aces High
« Reply #119 on: June 30, 2005, 02:09:37 PM »
Hohun so far i haven't seen any proof of a late type supercharger being used on The Aa, even the in late 1939 documents i have.