Author Topic: Gay Marriage  (Read 11767 times)

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #240 on: June 29, 2005, 05:15:24 AM »
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Benjamin Franklin, one of the original architects of the United States government, introduced as a model for the country's framework document the constitution of the Iroquois Nation, according to a Smithsonian Institution specialist of American Indian history.  


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On the radio program "Native America Calling" Hill said the Iroquois document also presented to framers of the U.S. Constitution the concept of a two-house legislature and a combined government structure of state jurisdictions and a national government.  




 link
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Offline AVRO1

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« Reply #241 on: June 29, 2005, 07:00:32 AM »
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Originally posted by Chairboy News item: Canada legalizes same sex marriage.  http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/06/28/samesex050628.html


:aok

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For instance, lets take the current example. Your sense of these universal rights tells you that gay marriage is good, mine tells me that it is bad. We are instantly at an impasse. To what should we appeal to break the deadlock?


The only thing that works for that is logic.

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Well we could say that the greater the number of "receptors" whose sense we poll on the subject, the closer we come to an accurate reading of the true universal norm. But in this case, here int he United States, the greater number of people "sense" that Gay Marriage is wrong and have expressed this again and again via their votes. This methodology is therefore inevitably going to be unacceptable to proponents of gay marriage who are sure their sense is right.


The earth wasn't any flatter when everyone believed it to be flat.
As you can see, public opinion does not make something a fact.

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The Christian theist, as I said would indeed say that there are fixed universal moral laws (a synopsis of which can be found in the Decalogue), that these moral laws are an expression of the perfect and unchanging character of an all-good God, and that they find their source in him. In Creation they were imprinted on the heart of man, and for a short time man held them aright. But then in rebelling man fell, he transgressed these laws and his moral nature was itself corrupted.


You're wasting your time with that argument unless you can proove that your religion is right. Come again when you have.

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Often he even denies that there is any way to distinguish at all and that everything is gray in an attempt to free himself from all responsibility, the old "What is truth?" of Pilate.


There is a way to distinguish between good and evil that does not include religion, it's called ethics.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #242 on: June 29, 2005, 07:16:22 AM »
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Originally posted by AVRO1
The earth wasn't any flatter when everyone believed it to be flat. As you can see, public opinion does not make something a fact.


I can prove that the world is round, as did Eratosthenes some 2300 years ago.  Can you prove the goodness or badness of gay marraige?

That gay marraige is good or bad is entirely based on public perception.  There is no real world measure of good or bad, there is only perception.

Therefore, if the majority of opinion is that it is bad, it is bad.  If good, it is good.

Public opinion does shape morals.
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Offline AVRO1

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« Reply #243 on: June 29, 2005, 10:53:26 AM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin Can you prove the goodness or badness of gay marriage?


It gives more people the right to marry who they love.

Do SSM have bad effects on society in Belgium and Holland ?

I don't see anything negative about it unless Belgium and Holland have had problems from allowing them that is. In which case I would have to weight in the positives against the negatives.

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That gay marraige is good or bad is entirely based on public perception. There is no real world measure of good or bad, there is only perception.

Therefore, if the majority of opinion is that it is bad, it is bad. If good, it is good.


The fact that it's the opinion of the majority in no way indicates if it is right or wrong. If public opinion was wrong about the earth being flat they could also be wrong about gay marriages. That's why public opinion is not a valid argument.

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Public opinion does shape morals.


I never said it did not. I only said that public opinion is not always right and is therefore not a valid argument.

A valid argument must be logical. Like the following :
Is it right for me to marry the woman I love ?
Is it right for a gays and lesbians to marry who they loves ?

If I answer yes to the first question then I must also answer yes to the second one since what's good for me is, logically, also good for them. Either that or admit I'm an hypocrite.

I'm out of here, this thread makes me :(

Offline Torque

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« Reply #244 on: June 29, 2005, 11:30:10 AM »
tax paying citizens having their basic rights thwarted by the dogma of tax exempt instituions.

there has to been irony there somewhere.

Offline Gaylord

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« Reply #245 on: June 29, 2005, 11:53:15 AM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin


That gay marraige is good or bad is entirely based on public perception.  There is no real world measure of good or bad, there is only perception.

Therefore, if the majority of opinion is that it is bad, it is bad.  If good, it is good.

Public opinion does shape morals.


Public opinion, in hindsight, is proven to be wrong nearly as often as it's proven to be right.

It was public opinion in Germany in the 1930s that led to the extermination of the Jews and Gypsies.

It was public opinion in America that denied women the right to vote.

It was public opinion in the South that sanctioned segregation.

A question, Holden- (I LOVE that name, BTW)- Exactly what negative impact on your life would gay marriage cause? How will it impact- YOU?

Offline Nash

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« Reply #246 on: June 29, 2005, 01:14:01 PM »
Hey Seagoon, my apologies. I regret taking that tone with you. Chalk it up to a bad day. Cheers.

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #247 on: June 29, 2005, 02:31:42 PM »
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Originally posted by Nash
Hey Seagoon, my apologies. I regret taking that tone with you. Chalk it up to a bad day. Cheers.


NP Nash, I didn't take offense, I was actually more sorry for writing poorly enough to give you the impression that the comment was targeted specifically at you, rather than being a more universal statement about biblical anthropology. Sorry about that.

I know this is off topic, I'll try to write something on topic later, but for what its worth, please keep in mind that our life stories have more similarities than differences, although the avenues they have followed have ultimately been different. When I read many of your posts I realize that at one time I would have said very similar things, and I too have gone through some similar struggles. All that I am, and that is very little, is all of grace and none of me.

As far as being bookish, as opposed to out there inhaling and exhaling amongst real people, sometimes I wish I really could dwell secure in the safer world of books. I spent too long in the world and of the world, and it seems like most of my week is spent with dealing with the real life fall-out of human depravity and how I wish I could just read about that.

I feel a lot of affinity for John Calvin who spent his whole life wishing he could devote himself to study in Strasbourg (and almost succeeded at one point) but instead was pulled back into the realities of pastoral ministry and leadership in the city of Geneva. Still, what one gains in  "book larnin'" one sacrifices in terms of experience gained under the tutelage of the school of hard knocks.

So all in all I appreciate the ability to be able to say  to someone in counseling       , "Even if the word didn't teach me X, experience would have confirmed it" even if I sometimes regret having to pass through the crucible of experience.

Anywho, PAX EX Homes,

SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline XrightyX

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« Reply #248 on: June 29, 2005, 02:48:56 PM »
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Originally posted by Torque
tax paying citizens having their basic rights thwarted by the dogma of tax exempt instituions.

there has to been irony there somewhere.


Never heard it put like that, but that is beautiful.

Offline ChickenHawk

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« Reply #249 on: June 29, 2005, 02:59:12 PM »
This thread has gone on for close to a week now and I haven't seen one person change their origional stance.

Group A feels that marriage was ordained by God as a union between a man and a woman and that we have no power to change what God has ordained.  There are also those who are afraid that changing the defenition of marriage will leave it open to further interpetation and more changes in the future, ie number of spouses or human animal unions.

Group B seems to be more secular and looks at marriage as more of a legal definition and can't find a logical reason why same sex marriage should not be legal.

I don't see that there can be any comprimise between the two groups.

So far in the US, those who feel moraly obligated to legally block same sex marrage have outweighed the proponents of gay marrage in most states.  But as the ratio of the religious population, or legislators, to non religious population continues to decline, we will see more and more states legalize gay marrage.  It's already happened in Canada.

Regardless of what laws are made or unmade, there will be no comprimise between the two groups IMO.  The subject is just too emotional.

Although I must say that the conduct of all posters in this thread has been most exemplary.  Maybe there is hope for the O club after all.

On the subject of the right to marry the person you love, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is any legal standing for it.  Say I love my brothers wife.  Can I marry her?  What if i'm in love with two people.  Should I be able to marry both?  How about arranged marages where both party's don't even know each other.  Of course love is optimal in todays society but it wasn't always.  As far as I know, legally love has nothing to do with marrage.  So to say that gays don't have the right to marry who they love is not a very good argument in favor of same sex marriage.
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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #250 on: June 29, 2005, 03:01:28 PM »
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Originally posted by ChickenHawk
This thread has gone on for close to a week now and I haven't seen one person change their origional stance.


Yeah, but it's been polite. ;)
sand

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #251 on: June 29, 2005, 03:21:02 PM »
There is a international relations doctrine (whose name escapes me) that states that one country should respect the licensing of another.  So if an Aussie comes to Canada with a valid drivers licence they are free to drive here and don't have to get a Canadian drivers licence.  I wonder how this will play out regarding couples who have been married in Canada.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #252 on: June 29, 2005, 10:46:31 PM »
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Originally posted by ChickenHawk
This thread has gone on for close to a week now and I haven't seen one person change their origional stance.


Not too suprising on an ego-filled BBS.

How many folks do you think have been led or pushed to closely examine their actual beliefs on this topic though?

Therein lies the value.

I am sure that even Seagoon, in opposition to homosexual marriage, realizes that homosexuals are still "all God's Children."

So what is this really all about? If you are of the Christian/religious persuasion, you've been told that

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Genesis 1:27: “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” (KJV)


You've also been told:

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Mat 22:39: And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Lastly, you've been told:

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Mat 7:1:  Judge not, that ye be not judged.  

 Mat 7:2: For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.


Wassa problem?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2005, 10:49:54 PM by Toad »
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #253 on: June 29, 2005, 11:33:07 PM »
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Originally posted by Gaylord
A question, Holden- Exactly what negative impact on your life would gay marriage cause? How will it impact- YOU?


Once more, marraige is a couple asking society to sanction their relationship.  It is up to society whether to approve, and it is up to society to choose the conditions under which the approval is given.  

My posts in this thread have been attempts to point out logical fallacies rather than posting my point of view, there is only one argument against which I feel may have some validity.  

That being, if gay marraige has a completely 100% same status as traditional marraige, then a judge choosing a couple for a certain child adoption would be barred from considering the gender relationship of the parents.  

All else being equal, a judge could not say that perhaps a straight couple may be better for a child than a gay couple.
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Offline ChickenHawk

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« Reply #254 on: June 30, 2005, 02:16:26 AM »
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Originally posted by ChickenHawk
This thread has gone on for close to a week now and I haven't seen one person change their original stance.


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Originally posted by Toad
Not too suprising on an ego-filled BBS.

How many folks do you think have been led or pushed to closely examine their actual beliefs on this topic though?

Therein lies the value.

I am sure that even Seagoon, in opposition to homosexual marriage, realizes that homosexuals are still "all God's Children."

So what is this really all about? If you are of the Christian/religious persuasion, you've been told that



You've also been told:



Lastly, you've been told:



Wassa problem?


What I was trying to say is that it's mostly an exercise in futility to try and convert the opposition to your way of thinking for either side.

Which ever side has the most voting power will make the laws while the other side will continue to scream, jump up and down and pull out their hair.
Do not attribute to malice what can be easily explained by incompetence, fear, ignorance or stupidity, because there are millions more garden variety idiots walking around in the world than there are blackhearted Machiavellis.