Author Topic: Gay Marriage  (Read 13741 times)

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #285 on: July 01, 2005, 09:36:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by 6GunUSMC
Seagoon, I, like you still believe there are moral absolutes.  I dont think that public opinion, political correctness or even name-calling changes that fact.  People don't seem to understand that fact.
Question: 50 years ago, it was 'accepted' that interracial marriage was morally wrong.  Preachers preached it, most people agreed with it.

Questions:
1. Was that true then?
2. Is it true now?
3. If the answer to #1 is 'no', then how we speak with such conviction as to the moral status of gay marriage now?
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Charon

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« Reply #286 on: July 01, 2005, 10:33:30 AM »
Seagoon, you do make an awful lot of worst-case scenarios trying to come up with some sort reasonably non-religious argument against homosexual marriage.

With "relationship lifespan" your facts aren't sourced, which is important to see the degree of neutrality behind the data. Data can be, and regularly is, created to meet certain ends. I can, within 5 minutes of searching throw this back:

Quote
MYTH #8: Gay, lesbians, and bisexual people cannot and do not want long-term relationships.

The stereotype is of the lonely gay man or woman drifting from one sexual liaison to another, never satisfied and never committed.

Studies have shown that between 40-60% of gay men are in steady relationships. These figures are probably higher because men in long term relationships tend to be older and less likely to go to bars, where these statistics were recorded.

Between 45-80% of lesbians are in steady relationships. In most studies, the proportion of lesbians in an on-going relationship was close to 75%.

It is hard to judge how long these partnerships last given the lack of marriage records. The few studies on older lesbians and gay men have shown that relationships lasting longer than 20 years are common.

Another study compared the rate of break-up between lesbian, gay, and co-habitating and married heterosexual couples over an 18 month period. For all couples who had been together for more than 10 years the rate of break-up was:

    * 6% for lesbians,
    * 4% for gay men,
    * 4% for married couples.

For couples together for less than 2 years, only 1 in 5 relationships ended over the 18-month period. Overall the difference in break-up rates between homosexual and heterosexual couples is almost insignificant.

In general, a pattern of continuity and stability was seen in all the relationships.
http://www.mcgill.ca/studenthealth/information/queerhealth/myths/


Are they playing tricks with data? Maybe. But who cares? It's immaterial. It sounds like a desire to regulate marriage, heterosexual included I would assume at some point, to achieve an optimal level of societal correctness. I personally don't like strangers or the government deciding too specifically and minutely what is best for my marriage beyond what my wife and I decide is best for the needs of the family. Do you believe there needs to be stronger controls placed on heterosexual marriage?

Your fears about persecution at the pulpit? Very hard to see. Religion is not a governmental/public entity or a business or a public entity. I just don't see it. I would certainly protest on your side should such an enormous change in our way of government come to pass. But again, you base a current action that has no direct impact on your life on a future worst case scenario of what might become. And persecution at the office? I don't doubt your story. But you do seem to encounter a lot of "activist" gay people. How are the activist? Are they in your face all the time or just not ashamed to occasionally describe a weekend with his/or partner during normal lunch hour social discussions? I could also ask, how activist were you in promoting your religious beliefs at work?Why was that meeting on homosexuality being called?

As stated, I have worked with homosexuals. I also had a fundamentalist Christian work for me and I worked for a Jehova's Witness. Guess what? The Homosexuals weren't the activists. With my subordinate, we were in a laid back office, and neither I or the others cared all that much. The bible tracts, occasional preaching, the picture of the fetus on her cubical wall -- generally ignored. But she was clearly activist. I was a bit more worried about the Jehova's Witness, since he was my boss, but fortunately he knew that he could cross a harassment line and was very careful in getting your permission to proceed. I gave him that permission, out of curiosity :) Sill,  an activist looking to convert. Then there was the Amway guy…  Your employment situation sounds like over reacting on management's part.  It's also ironic that you fail to appreciate that there are plenty of people who would refuse to hire, or quickly fire a homosexual if they could easily get away with it. Or a black, or woman, or any other sub group of less favored class.

Quote
The way I see this affecting the America that my children will inherit, especially if they godwilling, continue in the covenant, will not be good. And I am not eager to bequeath a nation substantially more hostile to the faith than even the one I lived in. Still, if the early Church could continue on in Corinth, I have no doubt that the church can survive in the kind of America we are building. With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible and after all, the blood of the martyrs has ever been the seed of the church.


You see all this hostility to the majority Christian religion. But most of the "oppression" I see is some judge being put in his place for putting a two-ton stature of the 10 commandments in a public hall of justice and daring those who disagree with preeminent Christianity to take it away. I don't mind that type of oppression, though it equally has to be watched over for overreaction and excess. Christianity is a strong majority today, and into the future. The victim angle is a powerful one, but it rings hollow to me.

Quote
But ultimately, why don't I want to see it happen? Because I have never seen blessings follow in the train of sinful behavior, and I quake at the thought of the curses this will bring down upon our heads. That won't resonate with most, but then again, neither did the warnings of Jeremiah to his society, and as I said before, I speak from conviction and personal experience. I honestly don't want to see anyone inherit anything but God's blessings.


That's refreshing. Why even bother with all the complications, philosophy and extremist projections that make it palatable in some secular way.

Charon

BTW everybody, Have a great holiday weekend. May the weather be fine, the relaxation deep and the amusements merry as we enjoy celebrating America.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2005, 10:38:45 AM by Charon »

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #287 on: July 01, 2005, 10:49:58 AM »
The promoting and passing of laws to protect and support the unnatural and perverse is not our county`s finest hour IMHO.
  Leaving everything else aside for a moment, this even goes against the natural laws of nature.
  What`s even worse, IMO, is the naive being swept up in support something as perverted and unnatural as this under the banner of "rights".
  Serial killers have their "rights" taken away. Child molestors have their "rights" taken away.
Laws are to protect, but most importantly they are to punish and guard against deviation of the unnatural and unaccepatable, not to protect the perverse, unnatural and deviates.
My two cents.
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #288 on: July 01, 2005, 11:25:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
The promoting and passing of laws to protect and support the unnatural and perverse is not our county`s finest hour IMHO.
As unnatural and perverse as, say, racial intermarriage?  That's the type of phrases used to describe it 50 years ago.  

This is a continuing story in this argument, the basis for discrimination isn't based on science, evidence, or experience.  It's not 'gay marriage will cause a 24% increase in crime because of X,Y and Z' or 'homosexuals are 73% more likely to hurt XYZ when given this right based on this study in country L where it is legal', it's based on 'because I say so, and I say it's yucky'.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline 6GunUSMC

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« Reply #289 on: July 01, 2005, 11:31:40 AM »
Told ya... these guys are trying to put this on the same par with a racial issue.  It will never fly.  Homosexuality is conduct-based the same as child molestation,  robbery, murder, etc.

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #290 on: July 01, 2005, 11:35:51 AM »
6Gun,

Religion is conduct-based, yet the religious types enjoy all sorts of tax-exempt status and special dispensation.  I don't see legions of homosexuals banding together to demand that these 'special rights' are taken away from the churches.

Funny that.

I also enjoy how you say 'it'll never fly' when I draw the obvious parallel between racism and this discrimination, with the suggestion that it's ridiculous.  You then immediately follow up with an attempt to equate the gays with child molesting, robbery, murder, etc.  Mr Pot, please meet Mr. Kettle.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline 6GunUSMC

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« Reply #291 on: July 01, 2005, 11:43:38 AM »
I still dont buy into it... Your comparison is invalid.

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #292 on: July 01, 2005, 11:47:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by 6GunUSMC
I still dont buy into it... Your comparison is invalid.
Kindly back up your statement or make a case of some sort.

"Is so!" isn't really as effective a tactic as you may have been led to believe.  That's why it's rarely by presidential candidates during the debates.

'ppreciate it.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #293 on: July 01, 2005, 11:50:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by 6GunUSMC
Homosexuality is conduct-based the same as child molestation,  robbery, murder, etc.


lol, and your comparison is? Now I know why there are so many infomercials
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Toad

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« Reply #294 on: July 01, 2005, 11:51:15 AM »
What I've yet to see explained here is why any "couple" that is "married" should get a better deal from the government or their employer than the same two individuals got before they "married" or "formed a civil union".

In short, I think it's all backwards.

To illustrate:

Let's say two individuals work for the same company at the exact same job/same pay and have the same health care program with the exact same benefits and coverage.

One of these individuals then marries. This individual gets health care coverage for his wife at significant expense to the company.

The other individual gets nothing new.

Why is this?

And why would we not expect homosexual couples to want the same "good deal" for their "civil union"?

I mean, it's a clear windfall. Who WOULDN'T want that deal?

Now, imagine that "marriages" or "civil unions" brought no "windfalls" from the government or employers. Would it be such a big issue?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #295 on: July 01, 2005, 12:10:19 PM »
Hi All,


Replies to Chairboy:

Respectfully, the idea that hate speech laws will be used against Christians who preach or write in opposition to Christianity is clearly not "a ridiculous argument that is not supported by the facts" I have already aluded to the anti-hate speech law in Canada which has been successfully used to muzzle Christians in the public arena.

For instance, recently a Canadian Christian, Dr. Chris Kempling, who is  counselor at a Canadian high school was convicted of "Conduct Unbecoming" of a teacher and suspended from his job. His crime? He wrote a freelance column and some editorials questioning the wisdom of the continued promotion of the Homosexual agenda and defending traditional marriage. The actual court documents are located here

Additionally, Swedens hate speech laws were successfully used to prosecute and convict a Pentecostal Pastor, Ake Green, the following report ran in Christianity Today:

No Free Speech in Preaching
Swedish pastor sentenced to jail for blasting homosexuality.
By Lars Grip, ENI, in Stockholm 08/09/2004

A Swedish court sentenced a Pentecostal pastor to one month in prison after finding him guilty of offending homosexuals in a sermon. The case was the first trial test of the national law against incitement as applied to speech about homosexuals.

Last year during a sermon delivered in the east coast town of Borgholm, Ake Green described homosexuality as "abnormal, a horrible cancerous tumor in the body of society." He called homosexuals "perverts, whose sexual drive the Devil has used as his strongest weapon against God."

During proceedings, the public prosecutor, Kjell Yngvesson, played a tape recording from the sermon. According to the church newspaper Kyrkans Tidning, he justified the arrest by saying, "One may have whatever religion one wishes, but [the sermon] is an attack on all fronts against homosexuals. Collecting Bible [verses] on this topic as he does makes this hate speech."

In his defense, the pastor said he merely wanted to make clear the biblical view on homosexuality, not to express disrespect.

Green's lawyer pointed to the contradiction between religious freedom and freedom of speech on the one hand, and the rights of homosexuals to be protected against discrimination on the other. A verdict of guilty would violate the pastor's right to preach about his beliefs, the lawyer said. Soren Andersson, president of a Swedish federation for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender rights, said religious freedom is never a reason to offend people. "Therefore," he told journalists, "I cannot regard the sentence as an act of interference with freedom of religion."

Yngvesson asked the court to impose a prison sentence on the pastor. Green is expected to appeal.
[/b]

Green won his appeal but now according to AP the Swedish Supreme court is examining the case -

(AP) - STOCKHOLM, Sweden-Sweden's Supreme Court said Monday it will review the acquittal of a Pentecostal pastor who denounced homosexuals as "a deep cancer" during a sermon in his church.

An appeals court in February threw out a hate crimes conviction against the priest, Ake Green, saying it was not illegal to offer a personal interpretation of the Bible and urge others to follow it.Sweden's chief prosecutor appealed the decision to the Supreme Court, saying Green's comments amounted to hate speech.


Keep in mind that these are just the initial salvos at a time when the norming of Homosexuality is still underway, once that process is well established, men like Green will be considered to be exactly like members of the Klan and then eventually no better than the members of the Hutu INTERHAMWE militia.

Here in the USA, a Pastor Chuck McIlhenny of the OPC (a denomination closely allied with my own) and his family and congregation have gone through horrific experiences because he ministers in San Francisco and has preached against Homosexuality. Robert Knight, for instance, noted in sworn testimony before the US Senate:

"In San Francisco in 1993, Pastor Chuck McIlhenny, whose home had been firebombed in 1990, called the city hate crimes unit when homosexual activists attacked a church. He was told that the Christians had their point of view, and the homosexual activists had theirs, and that they "cancel each other out." Despite the destruction of property, physical assault of parishioners, and the disruption of a worship service, the police would not come to their aid. Apparently, some hate-crime victims are more important than others. "

Check out his website if you suspect this man is a crazed hatemonger: SFOPC

Additionally Chairboy, I'm saddened to see that you believe that the opponents of gay marriage are simply motivated by an "I don't want this because I don't like the gays". and that this "represents common sentiment in the anti-gay marriage crowd more accurately then some of the other flowery rhetoric." Would you appreciate it much if I turned that specious ad-hominem around and said "I strongly suspect that the defenders of same sex marriage here are doing this because they really, really like gays - if you get my meaning." I don't do that because I cannot examine your heart, so I have no way of exactly accurately assessing your motivations, all I can do is respond to your statements, all I would ask is that you grant me the same courtesy. As it happens, I am not opposed to same sex marriage because "I don't like the gays" I oppose it because my conscience is captive to the Word of God, and in preaching and proclaiming that word, my commission only extends  to teaching what Christ has commanded in the word, and not my own opinions. Therefore I have no right to call Evil what the Apostles called Good or to call Good what the word Calls Wicked.

Regarding your question about whether my sermons that touch on Romans 1:18-32 would be considered hate speech? They certainly would according to the provisions of the laws of both Sweden and Canada, in fact in this thread I have been guilty of precisely what the Swedish prosecutor called "hate speech" and condemned Ake Green, to quote: "Collecting Bible [verses] on this topic as he does makes this hate speech."

Well this has run on too long already, I'll reply to some of the other posts in a bit...

-SEAGOON
« Last Edit: July 01, 2005, 12:12:31 PM by Seagoon »
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #296 on: July 01, 2005, 12:17:31 PM »
Seems inevitable to me that sooner or later the "hate speech" laws are going to bump up against the First Amendment at the SCOTUS level.

It will be interesting.
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Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #297 on: July 01, 2005, 12:41:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Religion is conduct-based, yet the religious types enjoy all sorts of tax-exempt status and special dispensation.  I don't see legions of homosexuals banding together to demand that these 'special rights' are taken away from the churches.


To the contrary Chairboy, plenty of examples exist of attempts to revoke the tax exempt status of parachurch groups in the US, but the recent brouhaha in Canada on precisely this subject has been particularly egregious:

Quote
Gay advocates fight churches' charity status
Institutions fear losing tax breaks if they oppose same-sex unions;
Rightly so, gay-rights group says

Alex Hutchinson
The Ottawa Citizen
Sunday, June 12, 2005

Churches that oppose same-sex marriage legislation have good reason to fear for their charitable status, a leading gay-rights advocate is warning.

"If you are at the public trough, if you are collecting taxpayers' money, you should be following taxpayers' laws. And that means adhering to the Charter," says Kevin Bourassa, who in 2001 married Joe Varnell in one of Canada's first gay weddings, and is behind http://www.equalmarriage.ca.

"We have no problem with the Catholic Church or any other faith group promoting bigotry," he said. "We have a problem with the Canadian government funding that bigotry."

Several Liberal backbenchers have been pressuring Prime Minister Paul Martin to amend the controversial gay-marriage bill, which is now before the House, to protect the tax status of churches that refuse to perform such marriages.

Under current rules, donations to religious groups are tax-privileged as long as the church refrains from partisan political activity.

"They can't connect their views with any political candidate," said Peter Broder, the director of regulatory affairs at Imagine Canada, an umbrella organization for charities and non-profit groups.

But the role of the Catholic Church in public debate is legitimate and legal, according to Bede Hubbard, the associate secretary general of the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops.

"Right from the very beginning, the representatives of the government have called on Canadians to express their opinions," he said. "And certainly, Canadian churches are among Canadian citizens."

Even if the churches are in compliance with tax laws --with or without an amendment to the marriage bill -- they could still be subject to a challenge under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. But this is unlikely to succeed, Mr. Broder said.

"It's hard to see how that would happen," he said. "For example, I'm not aware of any religious group having been challenged on their refusal to marry divorced people."

Churches rely heavily on their charitable status to encourage more frequent and more generous donations, according to Janet Epp Buckingham, the director of law and public policy for the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada.

"The loss the charitable tax status would really affect the ability of these ministries to carry out their functions," she said. "That includes a lot of things that are beneficial to society, like homeless ministries, outreach to the poor, and international development."

As a result, the Evangelical Fellowship favours an amendment to the bill guaranteeing that charitable status will not be challenged-- even though the group opposes the bill as a whole.

"If they're going to redefine marriage anyway, we would like to see these kinds of amendments in the bill," Ms. Buckingham said.

Bonnie Greene, a retired United Church official who specialized in tax issues, said the charitable status of churches is not under any immediate threat.

However, the regulations governing charities are greatly in need of updating, she said.

"In Canadian law, the definition of charitable activity is over 400 years old, based on a legal case in England," Ms. Greene said. "This is not good for democracy in Canada."

For Mr. Bourassa and Mr. Varnell, who run the website http://www.equalmarriage.ca, the distinction between advocacy and partisan politics is artificial.

"Our website is completely self-funded," Mr. Bourassa said.

"We are not a charity, because fighting for our Charter of Rights is considered by the government to be advocacy. What is the difference between fighting for equality and fighting against equality? There's none." Currently, groups promoting human rights, the environment and peace are not considered charities. The rules should be changed to reflect the needs of civil society -- needs that were not present 400 years ago, Ms. Greene said.

Any new rules will need to keep faith and politics separate to satisfy Mr. Bourassa, who is a member of Metropolitan Community Church in Toronto.

"During the last election, my church removed all linkages to political non-charitable groups that were fighting for same-sex marriage from their website because of the political implications and the tax implications," Mr. Bourassa said.

And he intends to make other churches follow the same path.

"There are charitable activities that are legitimate within faith communities," he said.

"Political activities are not charitable activities."

© The Ottawa Citizen 2005


Ok, now the logical next step would see m to be to tell me that my taking an ethical stand opposing same sex marriages is in fact a political stand, and that refusing to conduct them should they become the law of the end should indeed be reason for ending our church's tax exempt status (I have no personal tax exemption) because we are not equally serving all members of the community regardless of sexual preference or religious belief. This would incidentally effectively kill two birds with one stone, as being forced to pay taxes on our tithes and offerings would close our doors in one or two tax seasons.

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Manedew

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« Reply #298 on: July 01, 2005, 12:50:56 PM »
Quote
Told ya... these guys are trying to put this on the same par with a racial issue. It will never fly. Homosexuality is conduct-based the same as child molestation, robbery, murder, etc.


When genetic research was just getting started they used a sample of prison inmates for thier data

They thought from this sample that the average human had less than 46 chromosomes

no, just the average prison inmate....

so how much of what you say is based on genetics? ... just like being Black? .. or Gay?  Or a WASP?
_____________________________ ___
edit:

Not what I was talking about really, but illustrates the point well.....

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:YXgIB5C8tsoJ:www.alumni.ca/~bernd3a/resources/XYYAnthonyBerndtVSF.ppt+chromosomes+human+46+average+less+prison&hl=en
« Last Edit: July 01, 2005, 01:09:44 PM by Manedew »

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #299 on: July 01, 2005, 01:08:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
As unnatural and perverse as, say, racial intermarriage?  That's the type of phrases used to describe it 50 years ago.
 


     not really sure where you came up with that little gem of a comparison. One has nothing to do with the other. Way off base.
  No, as unnatural and perverse as child molestation, serial murders.......or dining on dog poop, to go to extremes.
Want to pass some laws making these things all fine and dandy too?
  Laws are viewed and used to not only regulate and enforce. They are also a standard by which our children become accustomed to what is acceptable, normal and natural.
  I for one do not wish for my grandkids to be in a society that supports, with laws, perverse, disgusting and deviate acts.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2005, 01:16:16 PM by Jackal1 »
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