Author Topic: Gay Marriage (Read 13798 times)

Seagoon · « **Reply #270 on:** July 01, 2005, 12:05:28 AM »

(Pt.2)

There are also many areas where the functions of Chaplains and Pastors pass under public review. Two of these are in counseling and marrying. The way the state can intervene in preventing those who don't give "acceptable counsel" from continuing to do so are scarey to say the least. Ministers are empowered as an agent of the state to officiate over weddings. There is already increasing pressure to forbid churches the ability to "discriminate" against homosexuals in hiring and discussion of the equity of ministers being allowed to refuse to marry certain couples. The day may come when ministers who refuse to officiate over gay weddings are accused of violating civil rights and their state sanction is removed.

Thus it may well be that by a bizzarre twist, the heterosexual marriages that I perform are not recognized as legal by the state, while the gay marriages performed by the justice of the peace are.

The way I see this affecting the America that my children will inherit, especially if they godwilling, continue in the covenant, will not be good. And I am not eager to bequeath a nation substantially more hostile to the faith than even the one I lived in. Still, if the early Church could continue on in Corinth, I have no doubt that the church can survive in the kind of America we are building. With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible and after all, the blood of the martyrs has ever been the seed of the church.

But ultimately, why don't I want to see it happen? Because I have never seen blessings follow in the train of sinful behavior, and I quake at the thought of the curses this will bring down upon our heads. That won't resonate with most, but then again, neither did the warnings of Jeremiah to his society, and as I said before, I speak from conviction and personal experience. I honestly don't want to see anyone inherit anything but God's blessings.

- SEAGOON

Nash · « **Reply #271 on:** July 01, 2005, 12:18:43 AM »

Hey Seagoon,

Torque said something that hasn't really been answered... And I can't think of a better person than you to respond to it.

It was:

"the real hidden agenda behind it all is that religious institutions could be at risk of losing tax-exempt status, academic accreditation and media licenses, and could face charges of violating human-rights codes or hate-speech laws if gay marriage passes."

I'd like to believe that the debate were merely one of values, but ya can't ignore this angle.

What of it?

Sandman · « **Reply #272 on:** July 01, 2005, 12:22:05 AM »

I prefer to look at it as one more step along the slippery slope towards polygamy.

Seagoon · « **Reply #273 on:** July 01, 2005, 12:37:17 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Nash
Hey Seagoon,

Torque said something that hasn't really been answered... And I can't think of a better person than you to respond to it.

It was:

"the real hidden agenda behind it all is that religious institutions could be at risk of losing tax-exempt status, academic accreditation and media licenses, and could face charges of violating human-rights codes or hate-speech laws if gay marriage passes."

I'd like to believe that the debate were merely one of values, but ya can't ignore this angle.

What of it?

Howdy Nash,

In my long-winded ponderous ramble above, I do mention civil rights violations and hate speech laws. I think most evangelical pastors in my circles see it coming, some of us work with missions organizations and denominations in Europe and Canada which are already falling afoul of it.

The really interesting question will be to see how the churches and ministers react to legal challenges. Some may compromise with the state, others will just softpeddle, and others will get in trouble and be fined, lose property, go to jail.

I've never met anyone who opposed it only because they didn't want to go to jail or lose their building, publications, etc. but the American church seems particulary horrified at even the possibility it could happen, some act like this will be the end of the kingdom and as a result are running like mad towards the political process (which is in itself a compromise of mission). Hey, there may be some good that comes from the state being openly hostile to the church, in that it might finally put to death the Constantinian idea of church/state relations that has prevailed with a lot of evangelicals for far too long and that historically the church tends to blossom under persecution and founder in times of ease (mixed metaphor I know, but I'm tired).

- SEAGOON

Nash · « **Reply #274 on:** July 01, 2005, 12:51:26 AM »

That was a great answer. (really)

In your opinion, is this aspect seen as a real threat?

In other words....

Torque said that the church's stand has very much to do with the ramifications of the legalization of gay marriage on the church itself.

I had no idea.

Maybe you do... So....

How much is this a factor? Is this part of your dialogue? Is this a consideration you've been aware of and are discussing?

FiLtH · « **Reply #275 on:** July 01, 2005, 01:00:44 AM »

What if two straight guys decided to get married...but had no intentions of engaging in sexual relations. But did so for loans etc. For any perks marriage may bring...but sit in a home together..completely content...bringing in chicks..partying..and not creating any future taxpayers. No one could challenge there true gayness...or lack thereof.

The real fear is society realizing that theres more to life than raising the next taxpayers..and just enjoying it as they see fit.

Nash · « **Reply #276 on:** July 01, 2005, 01:05:07 AM »

For one...

No self respectin' guy is gonna pretend to be gay unless he is.

For two...

There are far far worse shams of marriages existing between guys and chicks already.

Chairboy · « **Reply #277 on:** July 01, 2005, 01:10:05 AM »

Let me get this right, Seagoon... you object to gay marriage because if gay couples are given legal recognition, it will put a cramp in the style of people who are harassing, shouting obscenities at, and haranguing gays constantly?

This seems at odds with what I've seen you write before, but you said yourself that some of your sermons would become 'hate speech'. Either you're like Fred Phelps (who leads institutions like God Hates studmuffins and 'Mathew Shepard Rots in Hell') which I kinda doubt, or you're deliberately exaggerating the 'consequences' as part of a strategy against the legalization. The first is really bad, and the second one would be... disappointing.

I hope there's a third option, because I've enjoyed many of your posts in the past, and I find both of the above beneath the stature of the man I thought you were.

FiLtH · « **Reply #278 on:** July 01, 2005, 01:11:36 AM »

Nash..I know alot of guys that would fake being gay..if there was money in it. There arent a whole lot of self respectin folk left in the world.

Nash · « **Reply #279 on:** July 01, 2005, 01:13:06 AM »

Torque's post, again, because it might be the most relevant:

"the real hidden agenda behind it all is that religious institutions could be at risk of losing tax-exempt status, academic accreditation and media licenses, and could face charges of violating human-rights codes or hate-speech laws if gay marriage passes."

6GunUSMC · « **Reply #280 on:** July 01, 2005, 01:30:45 AM »

Seagoon, I, like you still believe there are moral absolutes. I dont think that public opinion, political correctness or even name-calling changes that fact. People don't seem to understand that fact.

When it comes to the religious side of this, people don't understand that God is not influenced by PopCulture. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He completely destroyed 2 cities over this issue. You have covered this aspect far more eloquently and completely than I could so I will move on...

I have no more fear of homosexuals than I do of anyone with any mental illness. In the history of mankind we have had our collective periods of promiscuity then after seeing the results of our excess we have realigned our thinking and actions. A great example of this would be the roaring '20s and early '30s. After the wild times during this era the culture backed off during the '40s and early '50s and we were morally stronger as a nation.

I am always hopeful for the future, I am sure that the destructive nature of this lifestyle will be self-evident in time in spite of the artificially generated cultural programming that takes place in our public schools, television and musical outlets.

For those who believe this is motivated by hate or fear, you are sadly mistaken. It is motivated by the love of our most important and most sacred institutions, the family... The nucleus of our whole society. The things that I said in my previous post about the Man-Boy unions... Some said that i made an unfair connection to this issue... but if we keep widening the definition of "normal" and narrowing what we call "perverse" our society will continue to crumble. Even the Man-Boy types have their national organization in place and puts their cause forth as a civil rights issue as the homosexuals are doing today! See for yourself!

So, make whatever comments you like about me, makes no difference in my stance. Too many people are afraid of making a stand for what is right, just because it is RIGHT in this country because someone might call them a name or accuse them of hatred. They try to draw unrealistic parallels to real civil rights issues of the past and that should be an INSULT to those who endured those times. The activist types have thrown so many names around about people so freely that they no longer carry any real meaning or credibility anymore... So... swing away! I am still right - Period.

Nash · « **Reply #281 on:** July 01, 2005, 01:39:39 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by 6GunUSMC
I am still right - Period.

No... I am right, period.

Elfie · « **Reply #282 on:** July 01, 2005, 03:45:27 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Silat
I rest my case.
Your bible isnt mine... We are a free nation. And I will always stand up to stop your bible from controlling this country.
Keep your religious beliefs for your family and your GOD.

I will continue to post replies according to my own personal beliefs. How could I do otherwise? How could you do otherwise?

I never said my Bible was yours, not sure where you got that from

Because we are a free nation, I respect your views on this threads subject matter.

I read your link, I got a pretty good laugh out of it

*edit* I tryed to find another source to back that one up, couldnt find any

Elfie · « **Reply #283 on:** July 01, 2005, 04:20:30 AM »

Quote

Let me get this right, Seagoon... you object to gay marriage because if gay couples are given legal recognition, it will put a cramp in the style of people who are harassing, shouting obscenities at, and haranguing gays constantly?

No, thats not correct.

I understood what Seagoon was saying. I dont go around gay bashing and I doubt Seagoon does either. You see, Christ told us not to judge others. I dont judge gay people, it's not my place to do so. Seagoon I am sure understands that also. For the record, I dont approve of gay bashing or bashing anyone.

Seagoon is talking about what happens when his sermons topic is on homosexuality? Will things progress in America to the point that when Seagoon and other pastors preach that homosexuality is wrong, will they be in trouble for commiting a hate crime? It could very well get to that point imo. What happens to freedom of religion then? What happens to freedom of speech then?

You posted a link to God Hates studmuffins. God doesnt hate gay people, he loves each and everyone of us. It's His desire that we would all come to know Him.

It's late, I'm going to bed now. I hope I made sense

Chairboy · « **Reply #284 on:** July 01, 2005, 09:31:58 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Elfie
Seagoon is talking about what happens when his sermons topic is on homosexuality? Will things progress in America to the point that when Seagoon and other pastors preach that homosexuality is wrong, will they be in trouble for commiting a hate crime?

Sounds alarmist. The KKK folk still get to talk about all the things they see as wrong with blacks. The white supremacists are still protected when they jibber jabber about Jewish conspiracies, and if you want to talk smack about people with purple noses or whatnot, our constitution still allows this.

So by the looks of it, this is a pretty ridiculous argument that is not supported by the facts. It looks, walks, and quacks like a specious attempt to fear monger to support an increasingly unstable argument.

It seems like 6gunusmc might be the most honest detractor here, I think he's the only guy that said essentially "I don't want this because I don't like the gays". It might not be a really great argument that'll win any court cases, but I suspect that it represents common sentiment in the anti-gay marriage crowd more accurately then some of the other flowery rhetoric.