P47N Perk Debate

[Hoarach]

Do we really need another late war plane that will be faster than most and will have somewhat decent range?

Doing a little research on the P47N and it didnt enter the war until 1945 according to a few sites I have researched on.  This late in the war the F-80s and at least the gloster meteor which I feel is a much better plane should be put in before another jug which most people would probably end up flying.  

When the 38s came out, dont know about the rest of AH but seeing more 38s around then before and most dont know what they are doing but at least the 38 is a plane that is pretty much on the same level as other planes because it can be caught and can be outturned if not flown well.  

If the P47N is modeled as is being said, not many planes will be able to catch it and it will have guns that people can hit with unlike the 262s 30mms which are hard to hit with let alone try to hit turning planes.

Found most information at http://p47tbolt.tripod.com/History.htm#P47N.

[DrDea]

This is making my brain hurt.
  perk a high alt performance jug???Whens the last time you were at high alt fighting anything but buffs?

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Hoarach
Do we really need another late war plane that will be faster than most and will have somewhat decent range?

Doing a little research on the P47N and it didnt enter the war until 1945 according to a few sites I have researched on.  This late in the war the F-80s and at least the gloster meteor which I feel is a much better plane should be put in before another jug which most people would probably end up flying.  

When the 38s came out, dont know about the rest of AH but seeing more 38s around then before and most dont know what they are doing but at least the 38 is a plane that is pretty much on the same level as other planes because it can be caught and can be outturned if not flown well.  

If the P47N is modeled as is being said, not many planes will be able to catch it and it will have guns that people can hit with unlike the 262s 30mms which are hard to hit with let alone try to hit turning planes.

Found most information at http://p47tbolt.tripod.com/History.htm#P47N.

That website is loaded with errors. There is far better info on the web and some of it has been posted here. I suggest cracking a quality book on the subject, something with a bibliography that can be verified.

Do yourself a favor and read what I posted just yesterday. The P-47N is not especially wonderful at lower altitudes, and that's where it will do the vast majority of its fighting.

Furthermore, no P-80s were ready for combat before VJ day. Moreover, the Meteor of 1944 was slower than most late-war piston-engined fighters.

I'll say it again, there is absolutely no justification for perking the P-47N.

My regards,

Widewing

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Brooke
So, who wants to go up with me in the dueling area and test FW 190A-8 stall turns vs. a P-47D-25?

In my testing, the FW has a higher turn rate than the P-47, but not by much.  For me, my testing is very repeatable, but it is at odds with Widewing's testing.  I'd be very interested to find out whether or not my testing is correct as I think it is.

Keep in mind I am not arguing that stall-turn performance is the most important thing in dogfighting.  In fact, my argument was the opposite.  All of this is stemming from the attitude that US fighters unfairly outclass all German fighters in maneuvering and that the P-47 turns well at low speed.   My points were:

1.  Roll counts as part of maneuvering, and the FW is great there.
2.  The P-47 has poor turn rate at low speed.  Most of the Bf 109's handily beat it there, but even the FW's are a little better in turn rate according to my testing.
3.  I doubt HTC fudges the flight modelling to favor US planes.

I'll be in the TA later in the week. So, drop in and I'll grab a Jug. Just be advised, I have already shaved more time off those numbers I previously posted. A P-47D-40 with one notch of flaps does 3 full left turns in about 50 seconds flat. So does a Typhoon and the F4U-1C (no flaps for both). A Spit V does it in 37 seconds.

I suggest a lot more practice flying those aircraft at the ragged edge. I spend a good 40 hours a month in the TA, and most of it flying on the edge, doing exactly what you are trying to test.

My regards,

Widewing

[Brooke]

Originally posted by Widewing
I'll be in the TA later in the week. So, drop in and I'll grab a Jug.

OK.  What day and time?

[Wilbus]

Oops. First wrong answer.

And what was wrong with that answer?

Brooke, if you see me in the MA some day let me know and we'll head into the DA.

Just like Urchin I spent several years flying nothing but 190's and I'm telling you, even the best flown 190 won't stand a chance against a P47 in a turnfight.

And yes, I've spent countless hours in Jugs aswell and I've outturned average/good pilots in their spits with the Jug. The P47 is a terrific turner while the 190 A8 and D9 or the two worst turners in the game. There is no doubt, I am talking from experience.

[Kweassa]

Just like Urchin I spent several years flying nothing but 190's and I'm telling you, even the best flown 190 won't stand a chance against a P47 in a turnfight.

 Even a pretty well flown Bf109G-6 or G-2 doesn't stand a chance against a P-47 in a turn fight.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Brooke
OK.  What day and time?

Usually Thursday and Friday evenings from 8 PM eastern for about 3-4 hours. I try to get some time in on Saturday mornings too.

My regards,

Widewing

[Wilbus]

True Kweassa.

[Wilbus]

I'll say it again, there is absolutely no justification for perking the P-47N.

The stats I have seen so far Widewing makes me agree with you. But consider this aswell, say what you said but change it in this way... "I'll say it again, there is absolutely no justification for perking the Ta152."

There is no justification to for having the Ta152 perked so I fear the N will be perked aswell.

We can only wait and see of course.

[Magoo]

Yea Wilbus, your right.

Of course WideWing did say there is no justification  for perking the N, he didn't say they wouldn't (or would), nor could he of course.

The whole perk thing seems arbitrary from my perspective, but I'm certain that HT sees it otherwise. I also think that once HT sets the perks on a plane (or doesn't), he's reluctant to change them for fear of causing more problems than he fixes, which is understandable. Who knows, maybe we'll kill two birds with one stone and when HT reads the posts he'll un-perk the Ta152 and add the P47N unperked. Even a low perk price like the F4U1-C would be groovy

Magoo

[Wilbus]

Rgr Magoo!

[Urchin]

I disagree, Wilbus.  I think a well-flown A8 has almost no chance against a well-flown P-47, but an A5 has a pretty decent shot.

Granted, this is just from first hand DA experience against Frenchy et al a few years back.  Actually, the 110 put in a credible performance against the P-47 and the A8.

[DrDea]

A8 couldnt out turn a deathstar.

[Urchin]

Well yea, but you don't really "turn" per se when you are "knife-fighting" in a 190.  It is more along the lines of rolling scissors and vertical movement combined with rolling to a get inside your opponents turn.. quickly.  And you have to hit the shot when you get it, cause unless your opponent is really awful, you'll only get one opportunity.