Author Topic: 200 Christian Homes Burned in Pakistan  (Read 2428 times)

Offline Staga

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200 Christian Homes Burned in Pakistan
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2005, 12:18:38 PM »
IIRC the arts, culture, science and trading flourished in Spain when it was ruled by moors.

interesting artice:
http://www.scienceandyou.org/articles/ess_06.shtml

Quote

In any case, even during most of the time when the Muslims ruled the city there was evidently also a large contingent of Jews and Christians who coexisted quite nicely with the Moors.
Only when the Christians succeeded the Moors did the life of the Jews in Spain begin to take a turn for the worse and by the 15th Century, the Inquisition actively persecuted them.

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2005, 02:06:14 PM »
Staga I have no clue why the Spanish Church (Catholics iirc) persecuted Jews in Spain. The Jews (according to the Bible) are God's chosen people.

I gotta say that the Muslin reaction to an illiterate man burning papers on the orders of his boss was way over board.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Staga

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« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2005, 02:28:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
The Jews (according to the Bible) are God's chosen people.


So what happens to the rest of us? Aren't we invited to the party or what?

Oh well.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2005, 02:31:33 PM »
Don't worry; Finns are God's Frozen people. ;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2005, 04:08:37 PM »
A long and wicked life followed by five minutes of perfect grace gets you into Heaven.

An equally long life of decent living and good works followed by one outburst of taking the name of the Lord in vain - then have a heart attack at that moment and be damned for eternity.

Is that the system?
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2005, 04:14:42 PM »
No.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2005, 04:38:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
A long and wicked life followed by five minutes of perfect grace gets you into Heaven.

An equally long life of decent living and good works followed by one outburst of taking the name of the Lord in vain - then have a heart attack at that moment and be damned for eternity.

Is that the system?



Hangtime, getting into Heaven is solely based upon your belief in Christ. John 3:16 says, For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. In Romans Paul talks about good works being unworthy to get one into Heaven.

Lets say that Hitler (with all the evil he started) heard the Gospel 15 minutes before he died and believed with his heart and confessed with his mouth, then even Hitler could have found forgiveness and made it to Heaven. (I only used Hitler as an example because I think he is the one person in history that EVERYONE can agree was evil. I was gonna use Stalin until I remembered Boroda is a member of this bbs ;) )

On the opposite end, one can accept Christ as your savior and all things are forgiven. If (in your example) I were to use God's name in vain, then immediately die from a heart attack I would still make it to Heaven. Why? Because I have accepted Christ as my savior and my sins have been forgiven.

The Bible also tells us that once we are saved, we are His for eternity.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2005, 05:05:26 PM »
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Much as I despise some parts of Islam, I have to admire parts of it as well. For instance, the koran is the original source work of their prophet, untranslated, unchanged, straight from prophet to paper.


The Koran has been translated numerous times. A page with links to all sorts of stuff regarding translating the Koran, reading it online, listening to it online etc etc.

http://www.solidine.com/kb/turkey/koran_quran.htm


One link I followed was an article describing the nature of the original Koran. It is written in Classical Arabic and very few muslims would be able to speak, let alone read/write Classical Arabic due to the evolution of the language.

For a large portion of the worlds muslims, the Koran must be translated so they can read it. For instance, how many Indonesian muslims read/write/speak Arabic, let alone Classical Arabic? I'm betting it's not many.

We still have many of the books of the Bible in their original, untranslated versions. The Dead Sea scrolls are a good example. I don't think it's to amazing that the original Koran is still with us considering that Islam isnt exactly an *ancient* religion.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2005, 06:17:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
The Koran has been translated numerous times.


To get the true meaning of the Koran, you must read it in Arabic. Translations are considered inferior by Islamic Clerics.
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2005, 07:00:38 PM »
Quote
even Hitler could have found forgiveness and made it to Heaven.


Yup.. that's the system.

;)
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2005, 08:40:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FaliFan
Nope. Hitler committed suicide. You can only ask for absolution while you're alive, and suicide is a mortal sin. Catch 22.


Point was, that even a person as evil as Hitler can find forgiveness and make it to Heaven.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2005, 09:53:01 PM »
L O V E
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline Seagoon

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Re: Re: Re: Re: 200 Christian Homes Burned in Pakistan
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2005, 01:01:05 AM »
Hi Lada,

Quote
Originally posted by lada
Would you be so kind and write some exact years of those events ?


Here are some of the more important events in the military history of Islam, up to the advent of Wahabbi Islam, arranged on a timeline (all events are AD) I've drawn from several sources. Please note the events PRIOR to the first Crusades, such as the fact that Muslims sacked Rome hundreds of years prior to the Christian reconquest of Jerusalem in 1099:

570    Birth of Muhammad.
610    Muhammad claims to have received first vision in a cave near Mecca.
610-22    Muhammad preaches in Mecca.
622 Hijira - Muhammad and followers flee to Medina.
624 Muslims successfully attack Meccan caravans at Badr.
625  Muslims are defeated by Meccans at Uhud.
630 Muslims capture Mecca. Ka'ba is cleansed (360 gods reduced to one god - Allah), pilgrimage rites are Islamicized, tribes of Arabia vow allegiance to Muhammad
632 Death of Muhammad. Abu Bakr (Muhammad's Uncle) chosen as caliph.
632-33    Wars of ridda (apostasy) restore allegiance to Islam
633 Muslim conquests (Futuhat / Jihad) outside Arabia begin.
633    Muslims conquer Syria and Iraq.
634 - 0644    Umar (c. 0591 - 0644) reigns as the second caliph.
635    Muslims begin the conquest of Persia and Syria.
635    Arab Muslims capture the city of Damascus from the Byzantines.
637    The Arabs occupy the Persian capital of Ctesiphon. By 651, the entire Persian realm would come under the rule of Islam as it continued its westward expansion.
637    Syria is conquered by Muslim forces.
637    Jerusalem falls to invading Muslim forces.
639    Muslims conquer Egypt and Persia.
641    Under the leadership of Abd-al-Rahman, Muslims conquer southern areas of Azerbaijan, Daghestan, Georgia, and Armenia.
644    Muslim leader Umar dies and is succeeded by Caliph Uthman, a member of the Umayyad family that had rejected Muhammad's prophesies. Rallies arise to support Ali, Muhammad's cousin and son-in-law, as caliph. Uthman launches invasions to the west into North Africa.
649    Muawiya I, a member of the Umayyad family, leads a raid against Cyprus, sacking the capital
650    Caliph Uthman has the Qur'an written down.
652    Sicily is attacked by Muslims from Tunis
653    Muawiya I leads a raid against Rhodes
654    Muawiya I conquers Cyprus and stations a large garrison there
656    Uthman is murdered; Ali becomes fourth caliph.
657    Battle of Siffin. Mu'awiya, governor of Syria, claims the caliphate.
659    Arbitration at Adruh is opposed by Ali's supporters.
661    Ali is murdered; Mu'awiya becomes caliph. Beginning of Umayyad Caliphate (661-750).
668    First Siege of Constantinople
669    The Muslim conquest reaches to Morocco in North Africa
672    Muslims under Mauwiya I capture the island of Rhodes.
674    Arab Muslim conquests reach the Indus River
680    Death of Husayn marks beginning of the Shi'at Ali ("party of Ali") or Shi'a Muslim movement.
685-705    Reign of Abd al-Malik. Centralization of administration - Arabic becomes official written language (instead of Greek and Persian) and Arab coinage is established.
698    Muslims capture Carthage in North Africa.
711 - Beginning of the Muslim Conquest of Spain
711    Tariq ibn Malik, a Berber officer, crosses the strait separating Africa and Europe with a group of Muslims and enters Spain.
711    With the further conquest of Egypt, Spain and North Africa, Islam included all of the Persian empire and most of the old Roman world under Islamic rule. Muslims began the conquest of Sindh in Afghanistan
715    By this year just about all of Spain is in Muslim hands. The Muslim conquest of Spain only took around three years but the Christian reconquest would require around 460 years.
716    Lisbon is captured by Muslims.
717    Second Siege of Constantinople
719    Muslims attack Septimania in southern France
724    Muslim forces raid southern France and capture the cities of Carcassone and Nimes
730    Muslim forces occupy the French cities of Narbonne and Avignon.
732    Battle of Tours: With perhaps 1,500 soldiers, Charles Martel halts a Muslim force of around 40,000 to 60,000 cavalry under Abd el-Rahman Al Ghafiqi from moving farther into Europe.
732    Muslim empire reaches its furthest extent.
755    Abd ar-Rahman founds an Umayyad Dynasty in Cordoba, Spain.
800s    Written collections of Hadith (sayings of the Prophet) are compiled. Sicily comes under Muslim rule.
813-33    Reign of Ma'mun. Theological controversy over whether the Qur'an is created or uncreated and eternal. Center for translation of texts from Greek to Arabic founded in Baghdad.
813    Muslims attack the Civi Vecchia near Rome.
831    Muslim invaders capture the Sicilian city of Palermo and make it their capital.
838    Muslim raiders sack Marseille.
846    Muslim raiders sail a fleet of ships from Africa up the Tiber river and attack outlying areas around Ostia and Rome. Some manage to enter Rome and damage the churches of St. Peter and St. Paul. Not until Pope Leo IV promises a yearly tribute of 25,000 silver coins do the raiders leave. The Leonine Wall is built in order to fend off further attacks such as this.
859    Muslim invaders capture the Sicilian city of Castrogiovanni
869    Arabs capture the island of Malta
870    After a month-long siege, the Sicilian city of Syracuse is captured by Muslim invaders.
876    Muslims pillage Campagna in Italy.
884    Muslims invading Italy burn the monastery of Monte Cassino to the ground.
902    The Muslim conquest of Sicily is completed. Muslim rule of Sicily would last for 264 years
911    Muslims control all the passes in the Alps between France and Italy, cutting off passage between the two countries.
920    Muslim forces cross the Pyrenees, enter Gascony, and reach as far as the gates of Toulouse.
928    Umayyad Abd ar-Rahman III declares himself caliph in Cordoba.
939    Madrid is recaptured from Muslim forces.
969    Fatimids gain power in Egypt and attack Palestine, Syria, and Arabia.
985    Al-Mansur Ibn Abi Aamir sacks Barcelona
994    The monastery of Monte Cassino is destroyed a second time by Arabs.
996-1021    Reign of Fatimid al-Hakim. Hamza ibn Ali forms basis of esoteric Druze religion.
1004    Arab raiders sack the Italian city of Pisa
1009    The Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem is destroyed by Muslim armies.
1012    Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, founder of the Druze sect and sixth Fatimid Caliph in Egypt, orders the destruction of all Christian and Jewish houses of worship in his lands.
1012    Berber forces capture Cordova and order that half the population be executed.
1015    Arab Muslim forces conquer Sardinia.
1030    Umayyad caliphate in Cordoba defeated by the Christian Reconquista.
1042    The rise of the Seljuk Turks begins.
1055    Seljuk Turks take Baghdad
1064    The Seljuk Turks conquer Christian Armenia.
1071    Seljuk Turks defeat Byzantines at Battle of Manzikert.
1071 - 1085    Seljuk Turks conquer most of Syria and Palestine.
1073    Seljuk Turks conquer Ankara.
1088    Patzinak Turks begin forming settlements between the Danube and the Balkans.
1096 FIRST CRUSADE
1099    Christian Crusaders take Jerusalem.
1100-1200s    Sufi orders (turuq) are founded.
1171    Fatimid power ends in Egypt with the conquests of Saladin.
1174    Saladin declares himself sultan of Egypt and Syria.
1193    Death of Saladin; most of Crusader states have returned to Islam.
1221    Genghis Khan and the Mongols enter Persia.
1241    Mongols take the Punjab.
1258    Mongols capture Baghdad; city is sacked and caliph is killed. End of Abbasid caliphate.
1281-1324    Reign of Uthman (Osman), who founds the Ottoman Empire. Muslim merchants and missionary Sufis settle in SE Asia.
mid-1300s    Ottomans capture Bursa and Iznik and move into Europe.
late 1300s    Ottomas take control of the Balkans.
1400s    Islam reaches the Philippines.
1453    Mehmet Fatih (rules 1451-81) conquers Constantinople.
1492    Reconquista ends. All Muslims (and Jews) expelled from Spain.
1516    Ottomans conquer Syria and Egypt.
1517    Ottomans control Mecca and Medina.
1520-66    Reign of Suleyman the Magnificent; Ottoman Empire reaches its zenith. Hungary and coastlands of Algeria and Tunisia come under Ottoman rule.
1526    Babur (Mongolian) seizes the Delhi sultanate and takes control of northern India.
1556    Akbar founds the Mughal (Muslim) dynasty in northern India.
1625    Java comes under rule of Muslim kingdom of Mataram.
1699    Treaty of Karlowitz confirms first substantial losses of Ottoman Empire in Europe.
1700s    Muhammad Abd al-Wahhab (Founder of Wahhabism) rejects Sufism and all innovation (bid'a). Founds what becomes the Saudi Arabian kingdom. Hindus regain power from Mughals in northern India.

The following site, while pro-Islamic and pro-Arab has a fairly good summary of the history of Islam:
 mid-east web
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Offline FiLtH

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« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2005, 01:04:31 AM »
Getting so I hate religions.

  Back when I was young...seeing loved ones later in the afterlife sounded great.

  But now a 6ft black hole of peace and quiet doesnt sound so bad.

  Its the fear of dying..and becoming nothing that bothers people. Im willing to bet if everyone excepted that...we'd all treat eachother a little better. What do I remember before I was born? Was I a mineral in some banana my dad ate?

  If I am a lifeform...created by the sludge pool we call earth...and am destined to become sludge once again..so be it.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2005, 01:10:08 AM by FiLtH »

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Offline -tronski-

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« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2005, 02:26:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by FaliFan
Nope. Hitler committed suicide. You can only ask for absolution while you're alive, and suicide is a mortal sin. Catch 22.


Ahhh...but what if Hitler wasn't a catholic?

Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
Point was, that even a person as evil as Hitler can find forgiveness and make it to Heaven.


What he said...

Anyhow, I'm so glad I worship the only true god...the big ball of orange in the sky...oh hail the big ball of orange in the sky, all praise be upon him!!!

 Tronsky
God created Arrakis to train the faithful