Author Topic: 200 Christian Homes Burned in Pakistan (Read 2316 times)

Simaril · « **Reply #75 on:** July 05, 2005, 06:17:15 PM »

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Originally posted by Staga
That Jesse guy sounds bit selfish and arrogant bellybutton dont you think? "It's me or hell; whatcha gonna do?"

I think I choose ancient Norsk gods like Freya and Odin; looks like Folkvang will be open to just anyone and if watermelon really hits the fan I may find myself from Valhalla drinking with old vikings.
Sounds much more interesting way to spend the eternity

Is the question really "what we choose"? The relativistic, "whatever works for you" ethos we're steeped in makes it very easy to forget that some things are just true/false no matter what we think about it. "Visualizing victory" wouldn't help Shirley MacLean outfight Joe Frazier.....(Not that I wouldnt actually pay to see THAT fight.)

Shouldn't the question really be "what is the truth?"

And not having certainty DOES NOT mean that truth does not exist. Some truth is jsut harder to find.

At the end of life, we either continue as spiritual beings or we dont. If there is another existance, we either find that somebody's doctrine is true, or it is false. If real science shows anything, it shows that wishful pollyannna thinking is generally useless, for reality is a hard, cold fact that sits there whether we like it or not.

So how hard do we look for truth? Or do we sit by the campfire and change teh subject?

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #76 on:** July 05, 2005, 06:20:38 PM »

In a past life Shirley Maclean was Jess Willard. She would have cleaned smokin' Joes clock in the second round.

Simaril · « **Reply #77 on:** July 05, 2005, 06:25:42 PM »

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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
In a past life Shirley Maclean was Jess Willard. She would have cleaned smokin' Joes clock in the second round.

Or {more likely) she'd become some new incarnation with very confused thoughts about the 20th century...

Lizking · « **Reply #78 on:** July 05, 2005, 06:43:38 PM »

How can the religion of Jesus have strayed so far from his teachings, Seagoon?

Raider179 · « **Reply #79 on:** July 05, 2005, 07:02:42 PM »

question... Was Eve like Adam in that he was perfect?(pre- tree of knowledge) ?

Lizking · « **Reply #80 on:** July 05, 2005, 07:34:42 PM »

Eve was, but Adam was missing a rib-hardly a perfect specimen.

I have always found it odd that a religion would consider knowledge to be a sin, much less the original sin.

However, I have always interpreted that biblical story to mean something along these lines:

The original sin, that is the original responsibility for one's own actions, began when Mankind became cognizant of himself as separate from his environment. He became something other than an animal. His new status, while not a sin, per se, did lead to the development of behaviors and ethical constructs that could be considered sinful, or that would recognize those behaviors as sinful, in and of themselves.

An example would be the concept of murder as opposed to simple killing for survival or food.

To take any biblical story as the literal truth is to veer onto shaky ground, especially when you are dealing with intangible concepts and not hard historical facts.

Please do not take my stance to be anti-God, I am merely anti-religion.

Raider179 · « **Reply #81 on:** July 05, 2005, 07:45:35 PM »

Well if she was perfect how could Adam and she have erred and eaten the apple?

Seagoon · « **Reply #82 on:** July 05, 2005, 08:14:32 PM »

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Originally posted by Lizking
How can the religion of Jesus have strayed so far from his teachings, Seagoon?

How do you mean Lizking? Give me a point of reference if you would.

Thanks,

Seagoon

Seagoon · « **Reply #83 on:** July 05, 2005, 08:29:40 PM »

Hi Mosgood,

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Originally posted by mosgood
Nice. The drug companies have started to learn a thing or two about marketing from religion and you can see it on TV more and more these days.

If they could just make everyone think they are sick with somekind of problem that they have the solution too, from the first day they are born... (as christiananity makes everyone think they are a sinner) then everyone will think they immediately need their drugs from the first day of life to the last.

I work in Direct response marketing and one of the most amazing things in DR is watching how people are always on the lookout for the easy "Miracle" product that will fill a need. Usually, it is presented as something incredibly easy to do....but you have to get it from the guy that is selling it. Getting it from someone else doesn't work becasue it's a inferior product.

This pitch about accepting Jesus Christ (Who happens to be the main man in christiananity) as your ONLY way to get into the best place to be after you die (Hell being the ONLY alterative) is pretty much the same thing as any other marketer trying to convince you that you can ONLY lose weight and thus being happy (heck who doesn't want THAT!) ....by doing something incredibly easy like taking this "Miracle" pill that only they offer.

Accepting Jesus is the ONLY way to get into heaven..... so call now while supplies last!

On the other hand, from my perspective, it's funny how time goes on but human nature stays the same,

"And their scribes and the Pharisees complained against His disciples, saying, "Why do You eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?" Jesus answered and said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance." (Luke 5:30-32)

The presumption that everyone makes is that they are "spiritually well" and in no need of the physician of souls. Sinners are always the people slightly worse than you, or at least worse in one's own eyes. We assume that if there is a heaven, our own standard of virtue will be more than enough to get us in.

Personally, the greatest day of my own life was when, by god's grace I began to see the darkness of my own heart and I realized not only how sick I was, but how great my need of healing was. I have only ever met one physician who is still raising the dead.

- SEAGOON

Lizking · « **Reply #84 on:** July 05, 2005, 08:34:20 PM »

The entire concept of accepting Jesus into your heart as a rebirth and the sole method of entry into Heaven has nothing to do with Jesus's teachings, only with doctrine from after he was killed.

Lizking · « **Reply #85 on:** July 05, 2005, 08:41:37 PM »

Let me ask you this, Seagoon:

Is someone berift of sin, according to your religion, who is not a follower of said religion, any less likely to go to the Heaven of their choice, simply because they have not been exposed to said religion?

Does your religion dictate that the only way to enter heaven is to practice your rituals, as opposed to your ethics?!

That Sir, is a cult, in particular a personality cult, and no better than worshipping a Golden Calf.

Respectfully,

Tom Scarborough

Seagoon · « **Reply #86 on:** July 05, 2005, 10:52:41 PM »

Hi Tom,

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Originally posted by Lizking
The entire concept of accepting Jesus into your heart as a rebirth and the sole method of entry into Heaven has nothing to do with Jesus's teachings, only with doctrine from after he was killed.

The idea of the necessity of regeneration, being born again, or "born from above" (gennethe annothen), is present within the teachings of Christ. For instance:

"Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'" (John 3:3-7)

But the necessity of a "new birth" of becoming a new creation precedes even the ministry of Christ, for instance in Ezek 36:24 we read the following promise of God to those who will be the believing remnant "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them."

Paul beautifully ties together the Old Testament promises of a God-worked inner change of heart and its necessity for salvation in Romans 2:28-29 when he says: "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."

Which hearkens back to the promise of God in Deut. 30:6 given thousands of years prior to the birth of Christ: "And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live."

So the idea of a new birth, a new heart, and a new spirit, the idea that one must be essentially a "New Creation" born from above in order to truly be numbered amongst God's redeemed children, is not a novelty that first crops up in Christ's teaching, it's a biblical theme in both testaments.

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Let me ask you this, Seagoon:

Is someone berift of sin, according to your religion, who is not a follower of said religion, any less likely to go to the Heaven of their choice, simply because they have not been exposed to said religion?

Well according to the bible, no one is born bereft of sin (see the above messages on original sin) whether they are born into a Christian family or not. Also heaven is not conceived of as a place "of ones own choice" it is a place where God is particularly present, where there is no longer any sin, or any of the results of sin, and where all believers have perfect communion with God and one another. The bible teaches that at the return of Christ, the redemption of the universe will be completed, heaven and earth will be made anew and new heavens and the new earth will be once again united.

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Does your religion dictate that the only way to enter heaven is to practice your rituals, as opposed to your ethics?!

That Sir, is a cult, in particular a personality cult, and no better than worshipping a Golden Calf.

Yes, you must sacrifice the goat using the sanctified silver knife and the golden chalice in the month of the harvest moon or there is no hope for you.

I'm kidding of course but having actually spent several years in the occult and working with counter-cult apologetics, I can honestly tell you there is no similarity. Cults are all religions of do - you must do this in order to be purified, in order to get to the next level, in order to merit... and so on. Do, do, do, there is no end of doing in them. Christianity, on the other hand is a religion not of do but of done. One does not work to obtain salvation, one receives it as an unmerited gift bought at the highest possible cost. It is the work of Christ that has secured the salvation of his sheep, all one need do is rest in him. So it is not a religion of esoteric rituals, it is a religion of trusting in, resting in, looking to, and walking with Christ.

Your Servant,

Pastor Andy Webb aka SEAGOON

Lizking · « **Reply #87 on:** July 06, 2005, 05:29:08 AM »

Seagoon, those passages speak of a rebirth, but they speak of a rebirth after death, not a conversion in this life.

You didn't answer my question, either.

lada · « **Reply #88 on:** July 06, 2005, 06:04:43 AM »

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Originally posted by myelo

when an unborn baby – say a 4-week old embryo – goes to heaven, does she stay at that age?

If it were this way, all christians would probably commit suicide at their best age

(not a bad idea in generaly, but they would be gone quite soon

)

I were also wondering why are they sad and cry, when somebody die.

They should be happy and celebrate, that he is in heaven now and he dont have to wait anymore...

Simaril · « **Reply #89 on:** July 06, 2005, 06:29:01 AM »

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Originally posted by Raider179
question... Was Eve like Adam in that he was perfect?(pre- tree of knowledge) ?

Don't confuse moral perfection with perfection of strength.

Best illustration I can think of: imagine a new, perfectly constructed Ford Fiesta. It has been polished, waxed, and perfectly tuned, but it's been designed for a specific purpose -- cost efficient transportation. So, even though it is complete and the "perfection" of what the designer intended, it still ahs limitations.

I believe we were designed as a specific blend of physical and spiritual beings, to allow us the chance to develop down paths not open to the purely spiritual. Inherent in that design was THE POTENTIAL for fallability, and so the Fall still rests in the responsibility of mankind, not God.

And yes, with that understanding, Adam and Eve were morally without fault before the fall, but still had the potential for making a mistake -- without contradiction in terms or doctrine.