P-38 vs Spit XIV

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by TimRas
AFAIK, there is no Galland's word. He simply does not mention this kind of fight in any of his books or interviews, which is odd, given the Lowell's dramatic description. However he has given his general opinion of the P-38:


CUNNINGHAM: The Me.110 was a disappointment, then, as you say?
GALLAND: Absolutely, absolutely. And I think the Lightning was an equal mistake.

CUNNINGHAM: The P-38?
GALLAND: Yes, the P-38.

CUNNINGHAM: You mentioned in your book that P-38s were not difficult to handle in combat, that you can..
GALLAND (laughing): Many, many P-38 pilots are angry with me about this statement, but it's true.

http://home.tiscali.be/ed.ragas/awshistory/awsgalland.html

It it difficult to think he would have such an opinion after experincing a fight Lowell claims.

Galland's opinion on the P-38 is almost as amusing as it is worthless, considering that according to the expert quoted above, he either NEVER faced one or was NEVER able to shoot one down. If you are going to castigate Lowell for "embellishment", then Galland has to be right up there with him. But then, you knew that already, didn't you.

[Kweassa]

At least Galland was giving his personal opinon, rather than lie about things that didn't (or, are highly unlikely to) happen, Cap'n.

[Guppy35]

Where's Widewing on this one?  Came across some stuff on the web from him in 1999 having this very same discussion regarding Galland and the 38

Dan/CorkyJr

[Angus]

A p38 was not always a P38.
As soon as they had boosted ailerons etc, they were really really ready to have a scruffle with anything.
Rall was pressed about the P38. He actually said that they were preferred targets! (he would send the students after them I heard)
However, while flying one, he was most impressed by its characteristics. That one had boosted ailerons.
BTW, he did meet some in the air, and shot one down.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Kweassa
At least Galland was giving his personal opinon, rather than lie about things that didn't (or, are highly unlikely to) happen, Cap'n.

Haven't read much Galland, have you.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Angus
A p38 was not always a P38.
As soon as they had boosted ailerons etc, they were really really ready to have a scruffle with anything.
Rall was pressed about the P38. He actually said that they were preferred targets! (he would send the students after them I heard)
However, while flying one, he was most impressed by its characteristics. That one had boosted ailerons.
BTW, he did meet some in the air, and shot one down.

The problem is we're also talking "Aces" opinions.

Here's a combat report from a relatively low time 38 driver from the 370th Fighter Group, flying a non boosted controls, no dive flap J-10 in the summer of 44 vs a 109.  

What can we take from his experience?  He won it, and was lugging bombs throughout the fight, unknown to him.  Does that mean the 109 was a hunk of junk?  Nah!  Does it mean the 38 was an uber plane?  Nah!  But it certainly was capable in the right hands.

You have to include the pilot with the plane which makes it tough to generalize

Dan/CorkyJr

Lt. Royal Madden 370th FG, July 31, 1944

“Approximately 15 Me 109s came down on Blue Flight and we broke left. I then made a vertical right turn and observed Blue Two below and close and Blue Four was ahead and slightly above me. I glanced behind me and saw four Me 109s closing on my tail fast and within range so I broke left and down in a Split S. I used flaps to get out and pulled up and to the left. I then noticed a single Me 109 on my tail and hit the deck in a sharp spiral.

We seemed to be the only two planes around so we proceeded to mix it up in a good old-fashioned dogfight at about 1000 feet. This boy was good and he had me plenty worried as he sat on my tail for about five minutes, but I managed to keep him from getting any deflection. I was using maneuvering flaps often and finally got inside of him. I gave him a short burst at 60 degrees, but saw I was slightly short so I took about 2 radii lead at about 150 yards and gave him a good long burst. There were strikes on the cockpit and all over the ship and the canopy came off. He rolled over on his back and seemed out of control so I closed in and was about to give him a burst at 0 deflection when he bailed out at 800 feet.

Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home. Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped. As a result I carried them throughout the fight.”

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Angus
A p38 was not always a P38.
As soon as they had boosted ailerons etc, they were really really ready to have a scruffle with anything.
Rall was pressed about the P38. He actually said that they were preferred targets! (he would send the students after them I heard)
However, while flying one, he was most impressed by its characteristics. That one had boosted ailerons.
BTW, he did meet some in the air, and shot one down.

Only the late J and L models had boosted ailerons. Not many were in the ETO, at least in the 8th AF units.

Boosted ailerons only decreased roll lag, giving the P-38 the ability to "flick roll" at high speeds. Below 300MPH, it made little difference. To pilots using heavy rudder input and differential throttle application I'd say it made little difference other than decreasing complexity. OTOH, I'd say they still used heavy rudder input anyway, at the least.

While boosted ailerons were an improvement, I'd say the other fixes contributed more to the improvements of the P-38.

By the way, I noticed that Art Heiden remarked about the substantial increase in power of the P-38L over all previous models, and did so on numeroius occaisions. The ONLY possible explanation for this would be the operation of the "-30 Allisons" at their higher power ratings, since the USAAF rated the P-38L as having the same power and actually being slower than the P-38J.

I have not personally swapped emails with Art since I was helping with the McGuire story a couple years or so ago. I sent him an email when I found out he had the stroke a couple of weeks ago, I don't know when or if he will respond, but if he does, I'll ask him about that. Maybe Widewing can ask him about that as well, since I'm sure he WILL talk to Art.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Kweassa
At least Galland was giving his personal opinon, rather than lie about things that didn't (or, are highly unlikely to) happen, Cap'n.

By the way, his actions were in direct conflict with his opinions. When the first P-38 group went operational, Galland immediately had to overhaul his fighter tactics for attacking the bombers.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Where's Widewing on this one?  Came across some stuff on the web from him in 1999 having this very same discussion regarding Galland and the 38

Dan/CorkyJr

I would imagine he might sit this one out for a while. He said in the other P-38 thread he was going to keep in touch with Art Heiden for a few days after Art's recent stroke.

Too bad we can't get in touch with any of the other pilots present for the gathering at Maxwell AFB, to ask about the alleged conversation between Lowell and Galland.

[Kweassa]

Haven't read much Galland, have you.

 As a matter of fact, I haven't. So please enlighten me.

 What did he lie about just exactly?

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Kweassa
As a matter of fact, I haven't. So please enlighten me.

 What did he lie about just exactly?

Instead, just for your own edification and such, I suggest you read some of the Galland stuff and compare it to what others of the Luftwaffe wrote. You'd probably enjoy it more if you read it yourself anyway.

[Kweassa]

Is that a "no, I won't tell you", or a "I don't know myself"?

 
 Anyone else wanna tell me? I truly have no idea at all. Just what did Galland say about the P-38 that was full of lies and crap?

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Is that a "no, I won't tell you", or a "I don't know myself"?

 
 Anyone else wanna tell me? I truly have no idea at all. Just what did Galland say about the P-38 that was full of lies and crap?

Go here:

http://yarchive.net/mil/p38.html

An interesting debate.  Widewing (C.C. Jordan) comments on Galland and his views of the 38

Dan/CorkyJr

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Of course, if you read what is posted at the link Dan gives, eventually, you'll find out that "cdb" is a fake. He is in fact neither of the people he claims to be.

That being said, there is plenty of good information in that thread.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Is that a "no, I won't tell you", or a "I don't know myself"?

 
 Anyone else wanna tell me? I truly have no idea at all. Just what did Galland say about the P-38 that was full of lies and crap?

Look, I don't have time to go looking for quotes from books that include Galland's quotes. You can read just as well as I. You CLAIM that Galland was not a liar, only Lowell was. Galland is well known as a Luftwaffe apologist and a self promoter prone to embillishment at best, and not known for telling the truth unless forced to.

Now, with regards to Galland's opinion (by your account, his personal opinion) of the P-38, an "expert" quoted above claims Galland never shot a P-38 down, and likely never faced one. So his "personal opinion" is based on zero personal experience, and has as much validity is it does basis on personal experience. He likely never shot one down, and further may never have even fought one. So he bases his opinion on what?

If you really want to find something out for your own personal satisfaction, the best thing you can do is go look for yourself. By doing so, you'll remove the majority of bias from others from the evidence, and be more likely to get something from it. If you are interested, you'll find out for yourself, if you just want to "argue" nothing anyone else posts will mean anything anyway.

I do not have the time to go look for references, and I will not attempt to quote from memory, my memory is not perfect. I found much of what Galland wrote to be at least suspect. I am not alone, even some of his fellow Luftwaffe officers found the same.