Author Topic: Question for Law Enforcement Guys...  (Read 761 times)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Question for Law Enforcement Guys...
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2005, 11:40:58 AM »
"Force multipliers" are a wonderful aid to jobs, but you must not allow yourself to count on them and have no other way of getting the job done. Hence my remarks regarding a lack of training in CQB and at least basic entry level martial arts.


Back up is often late, and sometimes never comes at all.

Batons are dropped, or taken.

Pepper spray is not 100% reliable.

Tasers don't always work, nor do other "stun gun" type tools.

Firearms malfunction, and are also dropped, or otherwise become unavailable.

For the above reasons, NDP (Non Dedicated Personnel) should be banned from the job. Being a law enforcement officer should require 100% proficiency with your duty weapon, your backup weapon, and your shotgun/rifle heavy weapon, with required practice and training on a monthly basis.

Further, at least basic entry level martial arts should be required, and should be required at a greater level with decreased size and strength. This too should be maintained on a regular basis, as part of a required PT routine.

It is the DUTY of an officer to be able to protect self, other officers, and the public in general, with the best possible proficiency.

A badge, a uniform, and a weapon will only get you so far, and if you do not have the rest of what it takes, and, in the worst situations it will ONLY get you far enough to be in over your head.
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Offline Seagoon

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Question for Law Enforcement Guys...
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2005, 12:54:34 PM »
Hello Chair,

Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Regarding the safety of bystanders, we have Seagoon's description to go on and his implicit assumption that she would have blindly fired through the assailant towards our resident pastor.  I respect his opinion that that may have happened, but I feel that it's an opinion that's coming from a very selective eye for competence.


Just mildly curious as to what a selective eye for competence consists of?


BTW - I don't assume that the deputy would have fired blindly at all. I assume that had the deputy felt significantly threatened and the perps did not respond to commands, she would have had no choice but to fire her weapon, which was probably either a 9mm or a .40 S&W probably with at lease ten rounds in the mag. I am assuming that the majority of the shots fired (as they are in most exchanges with police) would not have hit their intended target or in this case targets. Even if they did, at that range, there is a good chance that shots (jacketed bullets in particular) would pass through the body of the target and continue on. I am no expert Chairboy, and certainly would not be able to assess the situation as well as many of the people here, but I've been shooting for long enough to realize when a line drawn from the shooter to the target and then extended on ends near me and the people around me.

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Maverick

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Question for Law Enforcement Guys...
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2005, 09:24:36 PM »
Seagoon,

I saw this and I figure that ther best explanation is one done in person. With  just a bit of luck I can explain it when we get together tomorrow.

For some others. Frankly the single most dangerous situation a Police Officer gets involved in is a traffic stop. It sounds silly but think about it. You pull over a car with an unknown number of occupants. Never assume the number of heads visible through the rear window equals the number of people in the car.

You can never assume the person in the car is just the average joe (or josephine) that screws something up and commits a violation and is therefore harmless. Remember that the guy responsible for the Oklahoma bombing was found as part of a traffic stop. It works that way for armed robbers and other felons as well. The single most common mode of transportation in the US is a car and most folks use one including felons.

The person in the car has all the advantages. If they intend to shoot you they will almost certainly get at least the first shot and frequently the second as well. They can already be ready with weapon in hand. If they decide to shoot you your reaction time will come into play. It will take an average of 3/4 of a second to recognize the danger then do something to react to it. Given the circumstances, it is possible to get off 3 or more shots before a reaction can happen. IF the target actually reacts instead of freezing in disbelief. The reaction is where training comes into play. You will react like you train. If you just go through the motions and do the minimum to get by in training that's likely to be the way you react and may be how your life ends.

Someone made the statement that the number one concern in any shooting os the safety of the backstop or downrange area. That's true on a range. In the street the number one concern is going home at the end of the day. Both sides of the fight are thinking that they do not want to die there. If they have coherent thoughts at the time. Panic happens to folks, especially those who are not expecting a life threatening situation to happen just then. Tachypsychia (sp?) including the resultant tunnel vision can remove other considerations from your thoughts as you focus on the weapon and or threat. The rest of the world ceases to exist due to physical reactions to danger. Complacency is a fickle situation but deadly. Again it's a situation of experiance and training. If you train realistically and thoughtfully you are more likely to react in a good manner to continue to breathe.

It's quite true that there are a number of under trained Officers out there. It isn't their fault, there are over 7,000 seperate Police agencies in the US and some are very small and underfunded. The agency has neither the people, funds or facilities to train to any real professional standard. Some train by having thier folks go to another agencies academy, some by going to an accredited college level institution with studies in Law Enforcement. This still won't address the tactical or field training. Another point is that no matter how advanced the training the student still knows they are in training. When the real world happens it's a differant situation, non static and few to no totally correct options with a multitude of bad options. In plain language, feces occurs and you must deal with what is happening as it happens. If you do not then someone else will be responding to your homicide.
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Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2005, 09:51:17 PM »
If those two guys wanted to rip that officer apart, not even the gun would stop them.  Any police officer (man or woman) is notorious for bad aim.

Add onto that fact that I'd be willing to bet at her size, she wouldn't be able to handle a .45.  So the idea of her stopping these two guys suddenly becomes even more laughable, especially if she only has a 9mm.


It's unfortunate, but for our safety and theirs the standards that need to be passed need to be the same for both sexes.


All the things I said about a 90 pound female officer I'd say the same about a 90 pound male officer.



EDIT:  Seagoon, if she is 95 pounds, she would not be carrying a .40 .  The max she would have is 9mm.  She just would not be able to control the gun.  You can't make the gun smaller to better suit her size either.  If you do suddenly the recoil is twice as much and she's still up **** creek.
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Offline Pooh21

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« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2005, 10:25:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick

Someone made the statement that the number one concern in any shooting os the safety of the backstop or downrange area. That's true on a range. In the street the number one concern is going home at the end of the day.
 
and Chairboys post too

so you could be sitting like Seagoon in a car full of preschoolers when Miss Piggy starts busting all kinds of caps in your direction, how fun.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2005, 11:08:48 PM »
No 40 Short & Weak I've ever fired, regardless of the weapon or the cartridge, has ever come close to double the recoil of a 9MM. In fact, the recoil is strikingly similar, not surprising given how close they are ballistically.

The average 40 Short & Weak load fired by law enforcement is a 150 grain bullet at just barely over 1000 feet per second (muzzle energy 350 foot pounds).

By comparison, the average 9MM load fired by law enforcement is a 125 grain bullet at around 1100 feet per second (muzzle energy 330 foot pounds).

You'll note a muzzle energy difference of less than 20 foot pounds, about 350 and about 330. The 9MM tends to run to the high side of that velocity, often around 1150 feet per second.

Very little difference.

The 40 Short & Weak and the 9MM are most often found in guns built on the same frame, and even the cartridge size is very similar. Usually, the 40 Short & Weak has one or two less rounds, the frame of the gun is the same, only the barrel and magazine are really different. Often even the recoil springs are the same, meaning the power of the cartridge transfered to the slide and frame is VERY similar.

There is only 0.045" difference in bore size. In fact, the 40 Short & Weak was developed by Smith & Wesson because the FBI felt that the 10MM standard load of a 180 grain bullet at 1200 feet per second was too likely to over penetrate and generated too much recoil. They requested that Smith & Wesson develop a 10MM or 40 caliber cartridge that was very similar in size and power to the 9MM, so as to fit the same weapons with high capacity magazines and small enough grips to acomodate most anyone.

In truth, the 40 Short & Weak was developed mostly in response to the "Miami Shootout" where Jerry Dove's 9MM Silvertip failed to stop one of two bank and armored car robbers Michael Platt who managed to kill Dove and his partner Ben Grogan, and critically wound several other agents. The sad fact is, the 40 Short & Weak nearly duplicates the performance of the 9MM round that "failed".

By comparison the 45 ACP 230 grain at around 900 feet per second is around 410 foot pounds, but felt recoil is not TERRIBLY increased.

The 10MM with a 180 grain bullet at around 1200 feet per second easily exceeds 550 foot pounds, but is not nearly so manageable for the less serious shooter. You can also use a 155 grain bullet at 1350 feet per second for around 630 foot pounds.

The 357 Magnum round we carried was a 125 grain bullet at around 1650 feet per second, it was a +P round, rated number one in one shot stops, with the 230 grain 45 ACP a close second. The muzzle energy is a whopping 750 foot pounds!

The reason the 45 ACP scores so close to the 357 Magnum, despite the 350 foot pound difference in muzzle energy, is the 45 starts out 0.100" bigger in diameter, and the hollow cavity expands quickly to a far larger slug than the 126 grain 357 Magnum.

The 357 was not nearly so bad as it was suggested, even the women easily managed the recoil of the Smith & Wesson 686 Distinguished Combat Magnum we were issued. A couple of well under 130# women actually qualified with a score of around 90%.

Believe it or not, the 44 Magnum (my favorite revolver, but not my favorite carry gun) hasn't scored quite so well in the one shot stop category. The 180 grain bullet at 1650 feet per second scores nearly 1100 foot pounds of muzzle energy. That is rated as the number 2 round for the 44 Magnum. Number one is a 210 Silvertip at around 1350 feet per second, it only scores 850 foot pounds of muzzle energy. Evidently, unless used against body armor (the two lower levels are not rated to stop a 180 grain 44 Magnum) the 180 grain load is too hot. Last I looked, the 44 Magnum was around #5 on the one shot stop list percentage wise.

Needless to say, my personal choices for carry guns include a 45 ACP, a 357 Magnum, a 44 Special, and a 45 Colt. While the 9MM and the 40 Short & Weak might be okay, I prefer a more powerful round rather than a larger magazine. Between 5 and 7 rounds is about enough to cover all I've ever seen used in a personal defense incident, usually with plenty to spare. In a situation a law enforcement officer could possibly find himself (or herself) in, where a high volume firefight MIGHT happen as a one in a million encounters, I'd still rather have 5-7 shots of a more powerful round between reloads and simply carry one or two more magazines or speed loaders.
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Offline StarOfAfrica2

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Question for Law Enforcement Guys...
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2005, 01:46:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
If those two guys wanted to rip that officer apart, not even the gun would stop them.  Any police officer (man or woman) is notorious for bad aim.

Add onto that fact that I'd be willing to bet at her size, she wouldn't be able to handle a .45.  So the idea of her stopping these two guys suddenly becomes even more laughable, especially if she only has a 9mm.


It's unfortunate, but for our safety and theirs the standards that need to be passed need to be the same for both sexes.


All the things I said about a 90 pound female officer I'd say the same about a 90 pound male officer.



EDIT:  Seagoon, if she is 95 pounds, she would not be carrying a .40 .  The max she would have is 9mm.  She just would not be able to control the gun.  You can't make the gun smaller to better suit her size either.  If you do suddenly the recoil is twice as much and she's still up **** creek.


Afraid I have to agree with the others on this one and disagree with you.  I've seen little 4'11" ladies pick up a .44 Magnum and fire off 5 rounds, hitting the target every time.  Size may matter for shooting a particular gun comfortably, but it has nothing to do with handling recoil or getting your shots to count.  

As for the .40 S&W in particular, it again depends on the gun.  And the rounds being shot through it.  My Para-Ordnance .40 is at least as big as any .45 ACP, bigger than most I've shot.  And here I have to disagree with Savige, as the 150 grain JHP CorBons I've shot (which were law enforcement rounds) were rated at 1200 fps/480ftlbs.  I usually use 135 grains myself, for a little more velocity, but the 150s are perfectly capable rounds.  I do like the .45 better, but there's nothing wrong with the .40.

I'd still carry my Rossi .357 any day of the week over anything else though, given a choice.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2005, 09:07:45 AM »
the 44 mag with the older loads is the best stopper in thin skinned game like deer and pigs.  It does a far better job than the .357   but...

These are not people stopper loads.   The 44 overpenetrates.  several new loads like the cor bon and hydroshock seem to indicate the 44 mag is at the top of the heap... 44mags just aren't used in that many shootings tho.  

The 44's in the marshal study did all stop the bad guy... just not instantly in every case.. the damage was ugly tho.   In most cases... If I could... I would choose the 44 for versatility... If I had to shoot through anything at all.... I would rather do it with the 44 than even the .357.  The older 44 rounds prove that with people... velocity and bullet size/energy are not all there is to the equation.

My 5'2" daughter doesn't find the recoil of a 44 much more than fun... one of my 6'2 250 lb workers is scared witless by it...  it doesn't take much strength to shoot handguns.   I was not wanting to eliminate women from the force based on recoil sensitivity.

lazs
« Last Edit: July 08, 2005, 09:10:16 AM by lazs2 »

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2005, 09:48:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pooh21
and Chairboys post too

so you could be sitting like Seagoon in a car full of preschoolers when Miss Piggy starts busting all kinds of caps in your direction, how fun.


The corolary is that you could be sitting in a vehicle loaded with kids and the person in the car being stopped could spray in your direction as well. Until the LE Officer stopped the felon. So what's your point? I just pointed out that tactical considerations are not the same as they are on a range where things are nice and sanitary. Survival is the main concern in a fight to the death.

The individual intent on killing or wounding a Police Officer is the one picking the time and location of the fight. The Officer has to react to it the best they can and real life is not the hollywierd shootouts which is the only experiance 99.9999% on this bbs have. Very few here have trainined in the area and have any benefit of any idea of how this situation develops. Until you yourself get any training in the situation (from a reputable source not the TV) and know what the ramifications are for an ambush you really don't have any perspective on it. Stopping a car and finding a gun or knife in the hand of the driver is very different than simply sitting in your chair and posting about it.
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Offline wrag

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« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2005, 11:02:50 AM »
3 calibers I have not sen mentioned are the new .45 GAP

And the 41 mag.

And the .50 AE


Hmmm just thought of the 454 casull

LOL my bad nevermind!!!!!!!!
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