Ki84

[Krusty]

So, sounds like Busa's saying "What we have is what there really was, even if it makes people angry and they gripe alot, it doesn't change what I've found on the matter".

It also sounds like he's saying our N1K2 is overpowered (or was? I don't know when he wrote that, maybe the N1K2 was changed since then).



What I don't get is why we get WEP with +350mm when he refers to +250mm several times in a way that seems to indicate max power.

[MOSQ]

The part of the Ki-84 in AH2 I have trouble with is the combat flaps. I've read everything I can find and 90% of the sources call them Fowler style combat flaps. The problem I have is that our KI's combat flaps won't deploy until 168 mph, while every other plane in AH with Combat flaps can deploy at 225 or greater. Even the NIKI can deploy it's combat flaps at 225.

I find it hard to believe the IJA would model Fowler flaps  and use them on the Niki as combat flaps, but restrict them on the KI-84 to such a low speed.

Does anyone have info on when and how the Ki-84's flaps were used IRL ?

[HoHun]

Hi 1K3,

>here's an interesting note from busa
http://homepage2.nifty.com/amraam/ah/tmp/bbs002.txt

Highly interesting, thanks!

A bit hard to understand, though ... I'll give it a try:


Ki-84 prototype No. 3:

Ha 45toku Homare 11 engine


Ki-84 prototype No. 4:

Ha 45toku Homare 11 engine
<631 km/h/6120m 6min26sec / 5000m>
<624km/h,6min26sec / 5000m> NK9B engine


Ki-84 early production:

Ha 45toku Homare 11 engine (perhaps)


Ki-84 main production:

Ha 45 Homare 21, derated (confirmed for April, 1945)
<583 km/h/6000m 6min48sec / 5000m> unconfirmed


Ha 45 Homare versions:

NK9A - development version for high-octane fuel
NK9B - 1800 HP, unreliable
NK9H - increased power, less reliable, different supercharger gear ratio
NK9H-B - derated NK9H, roughly equal to NK9B
Homare 12 - late production NK9B, equal to NK9H-B


Ha 45 Homare power settings:

prototypes
production

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Wotan]

In AH from the clipboard:

Military: 2900rpm @ 250mm manifold
Normal: 2650rpm @ 100mm manifold

What Busa stated in this thread

Hello, all.

I want to give easy explanation about the performance of Ki84.

I submitted the official performance of Ki84 to Pyro.
The maximum speed is not <583km / 6000m>, and <631km / 6120m>.

Japanese planes are carried out performance measurement by Military power.

The engine which Ki84 installed is equipped with water methanol injection.
But Japanese engine of WEP is not related to water methanol injection.
The equipment operates automatically by MP higher than normal power.

There is no WEP of Japanese engine with output increase equipment.
It is an operation concept.

WEP was enacted in IJN in October, 1944.
But there are no data of having enacted WEP by IJA.
Also in the same engine, in IJA and IJN, operation restrictions differ in many cases.

I also proposed a possibility that takeoff power could be used for 1 minute.
But I think that this was equally treated by HTC with other airplanes without WEP.

The engine which KI84 installed is neither Homare21 nor Homare11 (Ha45sp).
The engine is Homere21 with documents.
But special operation restrictions are carried out.
The performance of the engine is completely the same as Homare12 (NK9 H-B).

The performance is as follows.

1820H.P. of takeoff power. (MP+350 RPM2900)
1670H.P/ 2400m of military power. (MP+250 RPM2900)
1500H.P./ 6550m of military power. (MP+250 RPM2900)

Ki84 prototype was installing Ha45sp with documents.
But the prototype of IJA installs the engine which is not usually government-issued supplies.
Ki84 prototype also had the engine which the development department assembled specially installed.
I concluded that the engine of the prototype of Ki84 was unknown.
The reason is because the prototype carried out performance measurement by MP+350 RPM3000.
These operation restrictions are the same as Homare21.
And the altitude which carried out performance measurement is too high for Ha45sp.
This fact is contradictory to the reduction ratio of the supercharger of Ha45sp.

The early production model of Ki84 may have installed Homare11(Ha45sp).
But the early production model of Ki84 may have installed Homare21 (Ha45).
The reason is that IJA tended to operate this engine by MP+350 RPM3000.
However, MP has not increased to +350.

Finally on documents, the engine which Ki84 installed is Homare21 (Ha45).
But operation restrictions were made the same as Homare11 and Homare12 (NK9 H-B) around April, 1944.
This fact can be checked till around April, 1945.

Ki84 in AH is installing Homare12(Homare21 derated engine).
Ki84 of a genuine article is installing Homare12 (Homare21 derated engine).
The prototype of Ki84 demonstrates 624 km/h by MP+350R PM3000.
Ki84 of AH demonstrates 624 km/h by MP+250 RPM2900.
This thinks that it is never the performance reduced unfairly.

These investigations are conducted based on the manual of N1K2-J, the manual of Ki84, the manual of Homare, INTERMIM REPORT NO.2, other manuals, and related 80-volume books of grade.

And even now, investigation is continued.

By the way, The climb rate of Ki84 greater than official performance now.
Isn't this thing more serious?

To FDutchman
I have translated the data of WEP, Homare, Ki84, and others.
Since other data were too extensive, I had you help.
It will be my responsibility if a defect is in data.
Thank you, FD.

I want my translation software to do good work.

Thank you all.

[HoHun]

Hi Wotan,

>What Busa stated in this thread

Thanks, I had missed that thread!

Unfortunately, the Wright-Patterson scan posted by F4UDOA appears to be down - perhaps someone saved it and could post it again? Thanks in advance!

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[Karnak]

Originally posted by MOSQ
The part of the Ki-84 in AH2 I have trouble with is the combat flaps. I've read everything I can find and 90% of the sources call them Fowler style combat flaps. The problem I have is that our KI's combat flaps won't deploy until 168 mph, while every other plane in AH with Combat flaps can deploy at 225 or greater. Even the NIKI can deploy it's combat flaps at 225.

I find it hard to believe the IJA would model Fowler flaps  and use them on the Niki as combat flaps, but restrict them on the KI-84 to such a low speed.

Does anyone have info on when and how the Ki-84's flaps were used IRL ?

I would be very surprised if the limit for the combat setting was really 168mph.  I think what Busa probably found listed at 168mph was not the combat setings, but rather the first landing stage.

However, that is just my suspicion.  I have found no evidence to back that up.  It just doesn't make sense for that dinky little combat deployment to be only 20mph higher than the full flaps landing setting.

[1K3]

if i recall, teh fowler flaps in ki-84 was the same from ki-43s and 44s which have lower speeed tolerance.

just my guess.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by 1K3
if i recall, teh fowler flaps in ki-84 was the same from ki-43s and 44s which have lower speeed tolerance.

just my guess.

I don't think so.  I'm not sure, but I don't think Ki-43s and Ki-44s even had fowler flaps.

Also the Ki-44 was built for high speed as well.

Remeber, those three are all completely different aircraft and I doubt there were many, if any, parts shared between them.  It would be like saying a significant part of the Tempest was the same part as on the Typhoon and Hurricane.  Even that isn't accurate as the Tempest actually was an improved Typhoon, whereas the Ki-84 was a completely new fighter.

One of the features of the Ki-84 over the Ki-44 or Ki-43 was a greatly simplified production that was designed into it via fewer parts and easier to make parts.

[gatt]

Wil,
does it mean that a 7 kills sortie is not enuff for you?

[Wilbus]

LOL Gatt, well, I've landed an 11 kill sortie without reload, And several 9's. 7 is the norm now

But to answer your question without bragging... NO

Interesting info on the engine though, our WEP runs at +400 though, not +350.

As for Flaps, gotto agree, seems slow but who knows...

[Karnak]

Wilbus,

What do you like about the Ki-84?  What drew you to it?

I'm just curious here.

[Wilbus]

After getting back to AH after my 10-month leave I wanted to try out the new planes, specially the much talked about Uber-forever-changing-the-MA-plane Ki84

Started flying it some while getting back in to AH and after a while I started to like it alot. Second thing that drew me to it was that almost noone else flew it,I was pretty much alone in the Ki84 in the air till about a week ago (like last suterday).

What has made me stick with it now, and the reason I've really really come to love it is its low speed handeling. It's a plane that handles "my way" and when flown right can help me handle the situations I often get into since I am a lonewolf mostly.

Good climb and good low speed handeling has made me come to love it and those two factors have alowed me to win 10 on 1 situations or even worse. Something few other planes would be able to do.

However, the Ki84 is only able to do this with the exact right handling, takes some time to learn it and it takes balls to fly at 100mph with 10 spits, lala, nikis etc on yer 6.

Now, since last suterday when I started flying it for real, the number of Ki's have really started to pick up in the MA, still no all that many but they are seen quite regulary. Some people claim (BS IMO) that it has become the new n00b plane. I still claim this is BS and the Ki84 takes skill and time to master to its fullest.

So, in short, a plane that is "me" and is capable of handleing situtaions wíthout too much alt.

I still love my 190's but they aren't all that good 1 on 1 planes. They are furball planes, stay fast and high and trust your friends to bail you out if you get too many people on your 6.

[Karnak]

Good answer.

It took me quite a bit to start having successes in it after switching from the Mossie.  The Mossie is, pretty strictly, a BnZ fighter relying on tremendous firepower and decent high speed handling.

The problem for me was that the Ki-84 is actually quite bad at that role.  I'd spent so long in the Mossie that I'd really lost all my brawling instincts from my Spitfire days and the Ki-84 is a superb brawler with it's low speed handling and great climb/acceleration.  Further I realy like the fact that, for a brawler, it is quite fast and able to get out from the slow pack when it needs too, e.g. bingo ammo or fuel.

I have always seen a number of Ki-84s, but never anywhere near the P-51/La-7/Spit V and IX/Bf109G-10/Fw190D-9/Tiffie/P-38 levels.  I just down't see it becoming the "newb" fighter ever due to the fact that combat trim makes it an utter dog whereas the Spitfire flys just fine on combat trim and has the forgiving Hispanos and the N1K2-J flys fine on combat trim and has ungodly gobs of ammo.

For me it has been fun to get back into an absolute first rate brawling fighter without having to endure the endless whines about it that the Spitfire incurred on its pilots.  In the Ki-84 it doesn't seem that people assume I am flying it for the capability and not because I really like the fighter. Nor do they seem to assume that I am an unskilled dweeb who needs it as a crutch.  I am, but at least they no longer assume it.

[1K3]

Case solved

our Ki-84 is powered by Ha-45-12 engine

[Wilbus]

New film for those who are interestead.

Here

or

Here


Followed last adice and zipped it this time, still about 2.5mb big though.

Fight starts with another knit nearby vs 3x P38's. Killnu, Stang and Lazer.