Dive bombing with heavies?

[Kweassa]

BTW, the word is spelled G-R-A-M-M-A-R.

 Oh hubson, that was beautiful!

[Raider179]

hehe

[Raider179]

Oh I see, Its like defense and defence. Live and learn:)

[gatt]

Yes, judging from your arguments, you should be one of those suicide-dweebs, definitely  

[mussie]

I like to fly Buff a lot but I have never dive bombed.

As some one who fly's them a lot I think the following would be a good solution

1- You can only drop eggs from the bombardiers position

2- When in the bombardiers position your guns are on AI

Why the AI guns when you are calibrating, cause that is when you are most vulnerable to attack

Additionally I would like to change back to the old system where you had to calibrate properly OR at least give the option to use manual calibration with a perk point bonus

Also the only Ack which poses a real threat is CV ack

Later

[Brooke]

I think whatever the real plane could do, it should do the same here.  So, there are planes built as level bombers that later were used for some amount of bombing at angles (like the A-20).  I suspect most bombers could come in at angles and still get bombs out of their racks.  B-25's might have done some amount of that, too.  I don't think A-20's or B-25's did vertical dive-bomb runs.

Regardless of any detail of how bombs are dropped, a real Lancaster probably could have been quite capable of going into a fast, steep dive and suiciding itself and its bomb load into some ground target and destroying it.

If there's some aspect to behavior in the arena that people don't think is right or don't enjoy, the way to solve it is to remove the motivation for people to do it, not by objectively changing plane performance.  Don't want people to suicide their aircraft?  Make the disparity between points when you die and points when you live much larger.

My view is that people suiciding their aircraft into ground targets are much easier to combat and that their efforts are much less effective than higher-altitude level bombing.  Diving to target in a bomber is a desperation move that can result in some destruction before the desperate pilot crashes or is shot down.  None of these level bombers handle well at speed or handle well in divebombing.  Yes, you can take out a building or a close group of buildings.  If instead you come in at 15k and do a good bomb run, you can take out separate buildings of your choice (like all the fighter hangers) and still have a chance at shooting down enemy fighters trying to take you out.

[Kweassa]

Regardless of any detail of how bombs are dropped, a real Lancaster probably could have been quite capable of going into a fast, steep dive and suiciding itself and its bomb load into some ground target and destroying it.

 Ofcourse.
 But that's techincal feasibility, not reality. Those two are different.

 In reality, no matter how possible it is, buffs and their pilots don't fly like that because they don't want to die.



 In the MA "points" are hardly of anyone's concern.  People who really DO fly for points, do not fly buffs in this manner -- as a matter of fact they hardly even fly buffs at all. The wreckless buff flying is usually performed by amateuers unskilled in the game, or experienced veterans who has an immediate need to kill something.

 Whichever is at the cockpit, the motive is always the same - to destroy the target, as fast as possible, no matter what the cost.  And since this is but a game and nobody really dies... the cost is practically free.

 So how do you demotivate someone when all the real-life penalizing factors are not included in the game? Bad rep... reprimandation... courtmarshall...  death...  etc etc....?

 You can't demotivate someone in this case. You just stop them.

My view is that people suiciding their aircraft into ground targets are much easier to combat and that their efforts are much less effective than higher-altitude level bombing.

 This is where you are wrong.

 It's actually more effective. That's why people do it more. Oh, the accuracy or the survivability suffers alright - but the problem is time.

 When you fly for 30 minutes, grab alt, bomb a base, return home... in that same time a sucidal buff guy can go kill FHs or VHs in four fields, re-upping each time they die. It's a time efficient method, compared to grabbing a buff to 15k.

 Why should they climb to 15k when they can come in NOE at some angles, make it to the base and spray bombs and kill an intended target? It's not like they care about surviving in buffs anyway.

[Kweassa]

Limiting the bomb drop command to the bombardier's position(F6) only, is a great solution. Obviously, this solves the problem of dive bombing heavies. But it also addresses the low alt buff problem.

 ...

 Usually, calibration at low altitudes is much more difficult. Because they are flying low, they don't have a clear line of sight to the intended target. It could be visually obscured by another building in front of it.. by a hill or a mountain.. and etc.

 Therefore, people usually bomb from the cockpit, or at external view mode. They simply line up to the target, pitch the nose down slightly, a shallow dive, and then drop when they are flying overhead.

 However, if the bomb drop is limited to the bombardier's seat; they have to steer the buff and make minute adjustments from that position. Like mentioned, calibration itself is difficult at low altitudes, so the difficulty of bombing itself, rises.

 If they wish to drop bombs without calibration, it would still be possible. However, since they have to look out from the buff with the bombing scope, it would be farely difficult to drop bombs accurately while flying straight and the accuract would suffer greatly.

 Also, being restricted to the bombardier's seat forces the plane to fly level - which will deny the buffs a sudden "burst of speed" they fancy when they dive-bomb stuff currently. They can't maneuver and bomb at the same time.

 This will make it much easier for low flying fighters to intercept nearby bombers, and deterr the success rate of low alt buffing to great levels.

[Alky]

As I recall in AW when you went over the max rated speed of the aircraft, your wings departed the fuselage. This along with the bomb release from the bombadier position only would stop all the nonsense.

[Brooke]

Yep, that's a good point about people not caring about score.  You are right -- people suiciding bombers probably don't care much about that, and so may suggestion of altering points is wouldn't do anything as you say.

I do think it's much easier to stop people coming in low, though.  That along with the fact that divebombing in a bomber not suited to it means you kill fewer targets makes it less of a threat than flying a bomber a more realistic way.  Yes, a low-alt suicide bomber can make more runs than the guy at 15k, but he needs more runs to kill as many things as doing it once the more conventional way.

I guess it just doesn't bother me in the game.  I see much more damage done by the folks who fly the bombers more conventionally.  The low-alt suicide guys are more of a fun target than an annoyance to me.

[NoBaddy]

Originally posted by Alky
As I recall in AW when you went over the max rated speed of the aircraft, your wings departed the fuselage. This along with the bomb release from the bombadier position only would stop all the nonsense.

Actually, the AW 'cure' for buffs flying 'unrealistically' was to make the wings fall off with a roll that exceeded 15 degrees.

I do know HT's stance on this...he provides a reasonably realistic model, how the players chose to use it is not his fault and he does his best to avoid unrealistic modeling solutions.

The problem isn't the game model, it's the player model. Look for ways effective to alter the users of the model and not the model itself.

[Kweassa]

The problem isn't the game model, it's the player model. Look for ways effective to alter the users of the model and not the model itself.

 That's like saying;

"If everybody becomes a good person, the world would be a peaceful place"

 Basically, it's a religious (and IMO naive) approach to social problems which often does nothing more than agravate the situation worse and worse.

 No amount of "education" is gonna cure people in how they act. People take the course of action which they think is most effective - and in the MA where efficiency is over everything, a "short-cut" style of approach to the game will always prevail.

 Grabbing alt takes too long. The targets are not really worth flying at 25k in bombers. Basically most everyone uses the buffs not as bombers, but overbloated jabos.

 ...

 Which is really more important?
 Technical feasibility, or reality?

 The modelling of the plane itself does not have to change. However, if a certain implementation to the bombing sequence will help solve the problem by discouraging such foolish acts, then that's a helluva lot better than what we have currently.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by NoBaddy


The problem isn't the game model, it's the player model. Look for ways effective to alter the users of the model and not the model itself.

Agreed. but in the case of the Lancs and the 17's While it may have been tecnically possible for these planes to do it. how many of these planes had the bombs get dropped by the pilot?

Typically it was the bombadier who dropped the bombs and I dont think he had a whole lot of control over the pitch of the aircraft.

the obvious solution would be for bombs to only be dropped by the bombadier or from the bombadiers position at which point the plane would go on auto level.

I have no problem with NOE sorties its the 17's and lancs that come diving in at rediculous angles as though they were some sort of massive Stuka.

On that front its become absolutely absurd the way they are used in the game

[Skydancer]

Just for info Lancs were used at low alt. Dambusters anyone?

Actualy I think the buffs are under used. You only ever see a few groups of three now and again. Id like to see an incentive to up em en masse. Now that would be a sight. Big buff formations flying over tgts with  fighter escorts, all good stuff. Make the towns or cities more of a difficult tgt. At the moment Hvy fighters are mainly used with the odd buff formation. Make base capture a buff job.

Also why not allow buffs to disable bases by cratering the runways.

All this would make the game far more strategic and involving than the mad furball it is at the moment!

[gatt]

The problem is not low alt raids like the Dambuster one; actually those guys have guts to come at 5K over a field under attack with CAP and La7 taking off like flies from cr*p. The problem are low level raids that quickly turn into suicide dive bombing runs or, worst, that are so planned from the beginning.

Have you ever capped a field? Some of them are specialized zombies (they take off, run low, dive bomb and crash for 2-3-4 times in a row). Some others come in high with 400mph+ fully loaded Typhoons, P-51s and P-38s, dive bomb and crash into cities, towns and radars. Time after time. Have you ever chased one of them from 15K to the ground, losing your precious alt?

I know this is a game but HTC should minimize every "gaming the game" possibility.