Author Topic: Arkansas and evolution :D  (Read 7182 times)

Offline StSanta

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Arkansas and evolution :D
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2001, 05:15:00 AM »
Heh, perhaps I better explain to you Cabby, the difference between hypothesis, theories and facts as they are understood in the scientific world. Please, do not feel insulted if in this thext the authors refer to those dismissing such evidence as bigots, intellectually dishonest or whatnot.

I'll support my claims with references to leading biologists.

Let's look at the words theory and fact for starters. First of all, unless you're talking about an epistemological discussion, and are arguing that nothing can be known to a 100% certainity - not that you are, not that evolution is a fact, not that yellow submarines invade Ireland daily, unless you're talking about such a discussion, we can use what I will call a "ladder of probability".

On the bottom, you have the WAG - Wild Arsed Guesses. This is your basical Joe Schmoe "theory". Moving up a bit and into the scientific community, you can have a hypothesis - an idea that might explain a fact, but one that is not supported well enough to make it a theory. once enough evidence have been gathered, you have a theory.

Now, Laurence Moran defines a scientific fact as "In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent.""

Might be worthwhile for a second to digress and discuss the difference between fact and theory here.

Facts are what are. For instance, apples fall towards the ground. They'll do this regardless of whatever theory we construct to explain this behavior. When Newton's ideas were reexamined for instance, stuff didn't stop falling towards the ground and people didn't suddenly become airborne, pending the result of the reevaluation.

Theories, on the other hand, are well supported concepts, by logic, empirical evidence and the other tools in the philosophy of science. They're used as a mechanism to explain the facts.

And this is why evolution is both a fact and a theory. The problem is with the way we use language. The fact of change of allele frequency (little genetic thingies) in a population over time is just that -  a *fact*. This can be proven. There are countless examples of this in the wild (and artificially created).

Now just *how* this is done, that's the theory.


Stephen J Gould has this to say about the subject:

"Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory - natural selection - to explain the mechanism of evolution."

 Stephen J. Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory"; Discover, May 1981

This should make it clear that Cabby either doesn't know the difference between facts, theories, hypothesises and WAG's, as used by the scientific community, or that he is deliberately trying to mislead us.

So, it's a fact that evolution does occur. the mechanism of how it's done is a scientific theory - not a WAG, not a hypothesis, but a scientific theory.

More forthcoming if needed.

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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
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Offline StSanta

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« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2001, 05:21:00 AM »
FWIW, the theory of evolution and the concept of the Christian God are not mutually exclusive.

The theory of evolution and a literal interpretation of Genesis is.

As I said before, evolution deals with the mechanism - not why it's there. Opponents of evolution have a tendency to drag abiogenesis into the picture, which is a different area.

Let me know if I can help you further Cabby.

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Offline Cabby

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« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2001, 07:19:00 AM »
Just a few who don't accept Evolution on faith:

"The Darwinian theory of descent has not a single fact to confirm it in the realm of nature. It is not the result of scientific research, but purely the product of imagination."—*Dr. Fleischman [Erlangen zoologist].

"It is almost invariably assumed that animals with bodies composed of a single cell represent the primitive animals from which all others derived. They are commonly supposed to have preceded all other animal types in their appearance. There is not the slightest basis for this assumption."—*Austin Clark, The New Evolution (1930), pp. 235-236.

"The hypothesis that life has developed from inorganic matter is, at present, still an article of faith."—*J.W.N. Sullivan, The Limitations of Science (1933), p. 95.

"Where are we when presented with the mystery of life? We find ourselves facing a granite wall which we have not even chipped . . We know virtually nothing of growth, nothing of life."—*W. Kaempffert, "The Greatest Mystery of All: The Secret of Life," New York Times.

" `The theory of evolution is totally inadequate to explain the origin and manifestation of the inorganic world.' "—Sir John Ambrose Fleming, F.R.S., quoted in H. Enoch, Evolution or Creation (1966), p. 91 [discoverer of the thermionic valve].

"I think, however, that we must go further than this and admit that the only acceptable explanation is creation. I know that this is anathema to physicists, as indeed it is to me, but we must not reject a theory that we do not like if the experimental evidence supports it."—*H. Lipson, "A Physicist Looks at Evolution," Physics Bulletin, 31 (1980), p. 138.

"I am not satisfied that Darwin proved his point or that his influence in scientific and public thinking has been beneficial . . the success of Darwinism was accomplished by a decline in scientific integrity."—*W.R. Thompson, Introduction to *Charles Darwin's, Origin of the Species [Canadian scientist].

"One of the determining forces of scientism was a fantastic accidental imagination which could explain every irregularity in the solar system without explanation, leap the gaps in the atomic series without evidence [a gap required by the Big Bang theory], postulate the discovery of fossils which have never been discovered, and prophesy the success of breeding experiments which have never succeeded. Of this kind of science it might truly be said that it was `knowledge falsely so called.' "—*David C.C. Watson, The Great Brain Robbery (1976).

"The hold of the evolutionary paradigm [theoretical system] is so powerful that an idea which is more like a principle of medieval astrology than a serious twentieth century scientific theory has become a reality for evolutionary biologists."—*Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (1985), p. 306 [Australian molecular biologist].

"The particular truth is simply that we have no reliable evidence as to the evolutionary sequence . . One can find qualified professional arguments for any group being the descendant of almost any other."—J. Bonner, "Book Review," American Scientist, 49:1961, p. 240.

"It was because Darwinian theory broke man's link with God and set him adrift in a cosmos without purpose or end that its impact was so fundamental. No other intellectual revolution in modern times . . so profoundly affected the way men viewed themselves and their place in the universe."—*Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (1985), p. 67 [Australian molecular biologist].

"I had motives for not wanting the world to have meaning, consequently assumed it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption . . The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in pure metaphysics; he is also concerned to prove there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do . . For myself, as no doubt for most of my contemporaries, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation. The liberation we desired was simultaneously liberation from a certain political and economic system and liberation from a certain system of morality. We objected to the morality because it interfered with our sexual freedom."—*Aldous Huxley, "Confessions of a Professed Atheist," Report: Perspective on the News, Vol. 3, June 1966, p. 19 [grandson of evolutionist Thomas Huxley, Darwin's closest friend and promoter, and brother of evolutionist Julian Huxley. Aldous Huxley was one of the most influential liberal writers of the 20th century].

"Evolutionism is a fairy tale for grown-ups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless."—*Bounoure, Le Monde Et La Vie (October 1963) [Director of Research at the National center of Scientific Research in France].

"As by this theory, innumerable transitional forms must have existed. Why do we not find them embedded in the crust of the earth? Why is not all nature in confusion [of halfway species] instead of being, as we see them, well-defined species?"—*Charles Darwin, quoted in H. Enoch, Evolution or Creation (1966), p. 139.

" `Creation,' in the ordinary sense of the word, is perfectly conceivable. I find no difficulty in conceiving that, at some former period, this universe was not in existence; and that it made its appearance in six days . . in consequence of the volition of some pre-existing Being."—*Thomas Huxley, quoted in *Leonard Huxley, Life and Letters of Thomas Henry Huxley, Vol. II (1903), p. 429.

"The theory of evolution suffers from grave defects, which are more and more apparent as time advances. It can no longer square with practical scientific knowledge."—*Albert Fleishmann, Zoologist.

"I argue that the `theory of evolution' does not take predictions, so far as ecology is concerned, but is instead a logical formula which can be used only to classify empiricisms [theories] and to show the relationships which such a classification implies . . these theories are actually tautologies and, as such, cannot make empirically testable predictions. They are not scientific theories at all."—*R.H. Peters, "Tautology in Evolution and Ecology," American Naturalist (1976), Vol. 110, No. 1, p. 1 [emphasis his].

"Scientists have no proof that life was not the result of an act of creation."—*Robert Jastrow, The Enchanted Loom: Mind in the Universe (1981), p. 19.

"In fact, evolution became in a sense a scientific religion; almost all scientists have accepted it and many are prepared to `bend' their observations to fit in with it."—*H. Lipson, "A Physicist Looks at Evolution," Physics Bulletin, 31 (1980), p. 138.
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Offline StSanta

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Arkansas and evolution :D
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2001, 08:33:00 AM »
LOL Cabby, did you happen to stumble across this site:
 http://www.wealth4freedom.com/biggestLIE.html

?

Nice copy and paste from that site   .

What is the scientific method?  The scientific method is a well-recognized and well-defined series of steps used to acquire an explanation for observed phenomena. A preliminary generalization, or hypothesis, is formed on the basis of careful observation of
the phenomenon being studied. This hypothesis is then tested by further observations and experiments. If the information gathered
from observations and experiments over time satisfies the conditions of the hypothesis, the hypothesis eventually becomes accepted
as a scientific theory.

That's science. Evolution ain't side stepping it, my man.

Isn't it true that evolution as a theory cannot be observed or tested?  Not at all. The very rapid evolution of viruses and bacteria can be easily observed. Example: Antibiotic resistant strains of many types of bacteria have evolved from strains that were very susceptible to these same antibiotics. Also, molecular test results and findings, in both plants and animals, support evolution.

Tataa. The theory of evolution might be debatable, the fact not.

You will have to do better than post a few quotes without supporting evidence.

Would be interesting if you discussed what aspects of evolution you think are faulty.

If you had some questions, they could be handled, along with an explanation.

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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
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[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 03-25-2001).]

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2001, 08:44:00 AM »
A pic better suited to keep discussion light hearted, which also better corresponds to my handle  

 

[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 03-25-2001).]

Offline Tac

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« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2001, 11:14:00 AM »
 

SwampRat

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« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2001, 08:36:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Tac:
Hmmm.. let me think. Humans and chimps share all but 2% of their genetic make-up. WTG DARWIN!!!

...so that makes evolution fact?  I personally find I hard to believe we all came about from some greater being decideing it would be, I also have serious reservations with mah Grandpappy being a chimp.  

  Absolutely the most perturbing and laughable thing on this subject..err, IMO, IS A BUNCH OF SELF APPOINTED KNOWITALLS ARGUEING OVER ANCIENT HISTORY.  

  We have problems now and a future to deal with...sheesh.

SwampRat


Offline Tac

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« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2001, 09:49:00 PM »
1%

That added to bundles of evidence make it an extremely probable origin. Nothing is ever 100% proven in science. 1% is close enough for me... plus the fact that no other specie comes that close to us. Like I said before, what are the odds?

Does it make you queasy that your far-fetched ancestors were quite probably chimps? Or that homo erectus, homo abilis, homo etc, etc do not portray a "climbing up the ladder" until they reached (evolved) into us? Personally, I find it fascinating! In a few thousand years, if we dont nuke or pollute ourselves to death, we will become even better!

Offline Tac

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« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2001, 09:51:00 PM »
Ewps, I forgot that all those fossils were really placed there by white mice from a hyperdimensional existence who are waiting for earth to tell them what that $#@$@ "42" answer means  

Offline Saintaw

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« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2001, 02:44:00 AM »
What is "Arkansaaa" ?  
Saw
Dirty, nasty furriner.

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2001, 07:01:00 AM »
SwampRat said:

...so that makes evolution fact?

No, what makes evolution a fact is that it can be observed in nature. With some strains of bacteria, as good as in real time. Evolution happens, and that's a fact. the mechanisms described by us of *how* it happens is a scientific theory.

I personally find I hard to believe we all came about from some greater beingdecideing it would be, I also have serious reservations with mah Grandpappy being a chimp

LOL, well, technically speaking, chimps and humans share a common ancestor. That is, humans are not descended from monkeys  .

Absolutely the most perturbing and laughable thing on this subject..err, IMO, IS A BUNCH OF SELF APPOINTED KNOWITALLS ARGUEING OVER ANCIENT HISTORY.

I'm discussing the present. Evolution is happening as we speak. Unravelling our history is important for our identity.

We have problems now and a future to deal with...sheesh.

yes, so let's play a computer game instead  .



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Offline Daff

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« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2001, 09:20:00 AM »
Ah well, people used to believe that the sky was a blanket, the sun was driven across the sky by horses, that the world was flat, that the sun rotated around the earth, that flying was impossible.
 If it wasnt for people who dared to question these relgious beliefs, we would have been stuck in the middleage, hunting witches, going on crusades and if we were lucky, might live till we reached the age of 40.

Daff

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« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2001, 01:58:00 PM »
Stsanta... mmm SATAN... bud I'm going to convert to satanism  

If Darwin heared this he would be turning in his grave. I mean he was attacked by the majority when he published his theory. Know it all starts all over again...

If you learn one thing about history, it's  that everything repeats itself.

Bee out

Offline Voss

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Arkansas and evolution :D
« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2001, 12:39:00 AM »
Everytime I turned into you last night, Santa, the ack at A11's Flack Factory would ping me!  

I live in OurKinSaw! I picked up my sons science book yesterday and had a look. He's in the sixth grade. Evolution is briefly mentioned and as an example they used the evolution of the horse. I asked my son about it and he said they tell the class that everyone was created by God. Good for them! Our kids need a sense of purpose.

When I took Anthropology, up on the Fayetteville campus, our professor stated that there were no longer any 'missing links,' and that the evolutionary chain was complete in discovered physical evidence. He also said, "Put aside your beliefs and allow this tenet as fact. For the purposes of this course man has evolved from the lower primates."

Satan works in suspicious ways.  

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Offline StSanta

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« Reply #44 on: March 27, 2001, 05:10:00 AM »
Heya Voss  .

Well, that was because you were alt monkeying. get below 3k (as I was) and it won't hit ya  .

Was a fun fight with you, Ddriag and Baane. I did manage to reverse on you, you'd extend, come back, we'd repeat. Both of us flying our planes as the *should* be flown, using the advantages.

Then that damned Baane entered. Ugh. 2v1 wasn't too much fun, so when I saw that .50 lasers aimed at me, i thought "I might only have a slow rock, but it is a BIG one" and took the HO'. pinged ya but oddly enough the kill went to the ack (must have hit you somehow and my hit wasn't registered). Sorry about the ALT-F4 call; didn't know it was you or i wouldn't have made it, just seemed like it to me. Then stupid idiotic uberdweeb allied opportunist baane and his LA-7 buddy comes. ugh. manage to outmaneuver Baane, but then  ddriag gains. ugh. Outmaneuver him (both were eager to kill me before the other did, so they came in fast, making overshots possible  ). what then? try to extend, but Baane is now gaining! PINGPINGPINGCRACK engine oil in scissors as we got h2h. Fighting some more, engine out try to ditch, dig nose in mud. Great fight  .

About evolution. yeah, it's sad how it is taught at some schools. But, what can one expect when even some scientific dictionaries cannot get the definition right? Personally, in public schools I think the question of how evolution came to be should be, in a science class, asnwered with either scientific methods or "don't know". Or, if religion must be used, all existing religions should be getting equal time  .

to me, having a shared ancestor with primates isn't bad. Evolution isn't derogatory. what it does to me is it makes me *appreciate* the complexity of the human animal, and all the natural miracles and wonders around me. A beetle. thinking about its DNA, and thinking about all i know about computer architecture (which can be very dry and extremely technical). What I know is NOTHING compared to the millions of years of evolution and complexity of the beetle!

I think evolution and various religions can coexist. it is quite possible that some god or another created or started evolution. With that in mind, theists are well off examining and being baffled by evolution; it can add to their spiritual life as it has added to mine.

After all, if one gains an undestanding of just how complex this thing is, and is religous, one will appreciate the works of the creator so much more. Hell, I even appreciate 68000 Motorola processors now, half worshipping the designers  .

But, we all know, down deep in our hearts, that it is all the works of Satan. God and his angel cronies have been bad mouthing him from the get go. Satan, being a modest and forgiving deity, sees god as a lost child and will allow him to exercise his free will.

StSantaism now!  

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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"You filthy piece of distended rectum! DIE allierte schweinhund!"