Author Topic: <S> to a brave man  (Read 1616 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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<S> to a brave man
« on: August 03, 2005, 01:36:43 AM »

Offline SMIDSY

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<S> to a brave man
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2005, 03:42:52 AM »
what did he do? sorry, but the dead have to earn my respect just like everyone else.

Offline Slash27

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« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2005, 05:41:07 AM »
Mr Vincent. The man had balls thats for sure. I wonder if the police he was busting on had anything to do with it.:rolleyes:

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2005, 11:38:22 AM »
Vincent wrote an interesting blog called the Red Zone. He understood the problems of Iraq and indeed the middle east better than many, and was irritating everyone by pointing out the "Emperor's New Clothes" principle - Namely, that because of our mad desire not to offend the Islamic world, or appear to be reindoctrinating, we are ultimately doomed to fail in democratizing Iraq.

Islam is fundamentally opposed to democratic principles with its fierce centralized control structure (ultimately Islam presupposes rule by one "Caliph" who  follows the Prophet as the God ordained ruler), and in Iraq allegiance in places like Basra is primarilly to the Mullahs and not to the people or the state. In Basra this means that the majority of civil authorities really work for the local Mullah who in turn takes his orders from a higher Mullah (even al-Sadr listens to the Ayatollahs in Iran). Vincent's last op-ed, which probably got his death certificate signed, made that relationship painfully clear:

"In May, the city's police chief told a British newspaper that half of his 7,000-man force was affiliated with religious parties. This may have been an optimistic estimate: one young Iraqi officer told me that "75 percent of the policemen I know are with Moktada al-Sadr - he is a great man." And unfortunately, the British seem unable or unwilling to do anything about it.

The fact that the British are in effect strengthening the hand of Shi'ite organizations is not lost on Basra's residents.

"No one trusts the police," one Iraqi journalist told me. "If our new ayatollahs snap their fingers, thousands of police will jump." Mufeed al-Mushashaee, the leader of a liberal political organization called the Shabanea Rebellion, told me that he felt that "the entire force should be dissolved and replaced with people educated in human rights and democracy."

Unfortunately, this is precisely what the British aren't doing. Fearing to appear like colonial occupiers, they avoid any hint of ideological indoctrination: in my time with them, not once did I see an instructor explain such basics of democracy as the politically neutral role of the police in a civil society. Nor did I see anyone question the alarming number of religious posters on the walls of Basran police stations. When I asked British troops if the security sector reform strategy included measures to encourage cadets to identify with the national government rather than their neighborhood mosque, I received polite shrugs: not our job, mate.

The results are apparent. At the city's university, for example, self-appointed monitors patrol the campuses, ensuring that women's attire and makeup are properly Islamic. "I'd like to throw them off the grounds, but who will do it?" a university administrator asked me. "Most of our police belong to the same religious parties as the monitors." "
(NYT, July 31)

How dare he point out that "Islamic State" and "Western Style Democracy" are mutually exclusive? Ah well, someone has to say these things even if our own state department won't. Until we realize our problem is with an ideology and not just a few people who espouse it, we are going to have a lot more bombings and dead journalists.

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SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
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Offline Sixpence

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<S> to a brave man
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2005, 12:35:49 PM »
A corrupt police dept, that would never happen in a democracy
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline ChickenHawk

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<S> to a brave man
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2005, 12:56:48 PM »
A brave man indeed.
Do not attribute to malice what can be easily explained by incompetence, fear, ignorance or stupidity, because there are millions more garden variety idiots walking around in the world than there are blackhearted Machiavellis.

Offline EagleEyes

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<S> to a brave man
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2005, 02:00:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SMIDSY
what did he do? sorry, but the dead have to earn my respect just like everyone else.



Well SMIDSY, id have to STRONGLY disagree.  He may not have died fighting terrorst, but he died trying to keep people informed.  I may not agree with some of what the media says or does about people, but they do keep us informed of the horrific things in the world.  Kosovo, Dufar, Niger, i could go on and on.  They are the ones that i think, that tell the world the truth.  Just my 2 cents.
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Offline Manedew

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« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2005, 02:53:08 PM »
It's good that some have the guts to go over there and report, too many 'report' regurgetated 'imbedded' B.S. as news.

A rare man in this day and age that deserves respect.

Quote
Vincent wrote an interesting blog called the Red Zone. He understood the problems of Iraq and indeed the middle east better than many, and was irritating everyone by pointing out the "Emperor's New Clothes" principle - Namely, that because of our mad desire not to offend the Islamic world, or appear to be reindoctrinating, we are ultimately doomed to fail in democratizing Iraq.

Islam is fundamentally opposed to democratic principles with its fierce centralized control structure (ultimately Islam presupposes rule by one "Caliph" who follows the Prophet as the God ordained ruler), and in Iraq allegiance in places like Basra is primarilly to the Mullahs and not to the people or the state.


We should have rolled Saddam up in a carpet and beat him to death like the Mongels did to the last Caliph.....

In Fallujah we should have seen how high a pile of heads we could make like they did in Kiev.

Like I said before this war ..... We shouldn't start it for many reasons.... amoung them and at the front of the list:

we don't have the will to take brutal control without cause....(and I'm kind of glad we don't.)


here's an intresting editoral - a bit off subject but helps show you types-who think that we who talk of peace want to appease 'terrorists' or 'insurgants'.  Not that I agree with all of it .... but that's what you get with editorials.
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0802-30.htm

we don't have the will to conquor, for the sake of conquest.... but this is a good thing.

so what paths are left for you?  the half-war? .... I think most will agree it doens't work too well.  We have Vietnam and Iraq as prime examples.  A more peaceful approach is nesscary.

Offline FalconSix

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<S> to a brave man
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2005, 09:36:44 PM »
Saddam wasnt a Caliph, Saddam was doing what you say we should be doing to these religious fanatics. Funny how what goes around comes around.

Offline SMIDSY

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« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2005, 10:46:02 PM »
sorry, i must have missunderstood the article.

Offline Slash27

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« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2005, 12:24:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by FalconSix
Saddam wasnt a Caliph, Saddam was doing what you say we should be doing to these religious fanatics. Funny how what goes around comes around.


Yes we are jus like Saddam. :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: August 04, 2005, 12:31:33 AM by Slash27 »

Offline FalconSix

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« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2005, 01:23:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Slash27
Yes we are jus like Saddam. :rolleyes:


No we are not you bastard! And that's the whole point!

Offline Jackal1

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<S> to a brave man
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2005, 01:35:48 AM »
:D
 I feel a BBS career coming and going in record time.

to the man and his family.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2005, 01:40:30 AM by Jackal1 »
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Slash27

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« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2005, 06:19:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by FalconSix
No we are not you bastard! And that's the whole point!



 Guess you should have made you point clearer. My bad then.



And you can take your  "bastard" comment and shove it.

Offline AWMac

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« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2005, 07:55:45 AM »
IN
:D