109 K-4 with 1.98ata

[Angus]

Kuffie plays Il-2.
We fly in AH

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Kurfürst


I have never called myself a 109 expert, but I call Kev a liar.

For sure we can all plainly see that you are not.


What FACT? Kev`s, the liars 'facts'?

Well let`s see the facts :

- One Wing of 109K was operating on 1.98ata in January/February 1945, for operational trials, as noted in DB meetings.

- 1.98ata was cleared for the DB 605D engine of G-10 and K-4 in late February 1945, according to the French 109 researcher Olivier Lefebvre, aka butch2k.

- There`s written order from the OKL, dated 20th March 1945, noting 4 Fighter Wings from JG 27 and JG 53 to convert to 1.98ata.

- Olivier Lefebvre notes in agreement that this conversion took place.

- Alfred Price lists these four wings in a close date 2.5 weeks later, having 142 aircraft on strenght, out of which 79 were servicable at the time.

All facts...

Yup, one whole wing (II./JG11) with 10 a/c (so could be 2./JG11). Manipulating data again Kurfy, you are.

Complete conversion of all K-4s in those 4 Gruppen to 1.98 is only pure speculation on your part.


Kev has read my site, it`s clearly states where the info comes from and what it`s about... and when the info refers to.

It was clearly stated that the unit strenghts were taken from Alfred Price (and not my data), and refer to 9th April 1945.
Both the date and source is given. Kev distorts these facts.

We don`t have to assume anything. You are assuming the conversion did not take place, against the written orders from the German high command.

It`s facts vs. your assumptions.


The only one distorting facts is Kurfy. You are assuming that complete conversion took place, dispite you having not ever ever  ever produced official documents that C3 fuel, which 1.98 most definately required, was ever delivered in enough quantity for those 79 servicable K-4s to be able to use 1.98.


No, the rarest bird would be the MkXIV Spitfire at +21 lbs boost, which is the what Kev wants. There were only 60 planes maximum using that boost, from Jan/February 1945.

That`s fewer planes, and in a comparable period. I don`t see much difference between 100 Spits using high boost in the last four months of the war, and 142 109s using high boost in the last 2 months of the war.



21lb boost was cleared from July 1944. It would be nice if Kurfy could make up his mind on how many XIVs were around.


Of course, Kev wants double standards.

He wants to have the rarest Spitfire on the best peformance, and at the same time, he refuses to have it`s equivalent 109 on it`s best performance.


Rarest Spit? The K-4 at 1.98 was rare being only 8% (according to Kurfy's numbers for  K-4s that were suppose to be able to use 1.98) of the K-4s production of 1700 a/c while just about all the XIVs could run at 21lb.


It`s stinking of agenda. One that are interested in the true facts and not Kev`s lies should visit my site, the URL is in the sig.

We should either have perked 1.98ata 109K and +21 lbs SpitXIV on high boost, or just 1.8ata 109K and +18lbs MkXIV.
Not best vs. worst, which is what Kev asks for in a typical spitdweeb fashion.

For those that do, beware only the part of the story that supports his uber German agenda is told.

[Kev367th]

Angus - I think you misunderstand me. The 109K itself wasn't a rare plane, BUT a 109K-4 with 1.98ata was a rare plane.

Kurfurst - Well there you go again, one complete wing makes it sound like a hell of lot of planes until, you realize how many aircraft were in that wing.

I didn't distort the date, in fact you even highlighted the "March probably April" part of my post, and then went on to say they were operational 9th April 1945, wheres the distortion?

My only question to you is - is that a best day date? i.e. was it pulled to show the best number of aircraft, or is it a reasonable average for March?

OK, by your own figures that puts 'maybe' 45 K-4's operating 1.98ata the 1st week of April.
The war ended in May for Gods sake.
 
As I said that would make a 109K-4 on ata1.98 the RAREST bird in AH2 (45 only, and only in the last month or so of the war),nowhere near being a REPRESENTATIVE 109k-4, and will therefore not make it in.

As I said - your comparison of Spit 14 to 109k-4 numbers in 1944 and using that to justify a perk price for a k-4 in the last month or so of the war is what is distorting.

Getting the order to convert, getting the parts and getting the time to convert are completely different animals. As I said, from your post - 79 aircraft - but I doubted that all that were converted, you stated 4.5 wings converted, thats around 45 aircraft (assuming the wings were fully equipped), so I guess I wasn't wrong or lieing after all.

Actually Kurfurst what is funny is the way you and a very few other want the rarest uberboosted LW planes and yet scream like hell when a Spit is suggested that operated in higher numbers.
45 109K-4 vs 100 spit XII (all operational), and theres no way we would get a Spit XII.
Or 2 squadrons of IX (40-60 ac total including spares etc) converted AND used 150 grade as early as May 44 (got scan of sqn records).
Yet there is no way we would get a 150 grade IX. Why use 40-60? Well your LW strengths include non-op aircraft.

Its not even a case of best vs worst (in fact it seems to work the other way round) - What you want is the best rarest LW rides up against the average RAF ride. If a 109k-4 ata 1.98 made it in FREE, there no reason why the XVI shouldn,t be in at 25lbs boost (more common than a k4-1.98 in April '45) FREE, or even a IX at 25lbs boost FREE (definately more common April '45).

So what rarer? 60 Spits minimum Jan 45 at 21lbs boost, or 45 maximum K-4 ata1.98 April 1945?
As usual you muddy the waters by mentioning total production numbers, we are not talking total production numbers, but a small part of those numbers. Even that you got wrong, 800-900 Spit 14? In fact 957 were produced.

Finally - what has Jan 1945 strengths got to do with what was available 3 months later in April 1945? Post April 45 strengths.

I too urge people to visit his site - use your common sense and you'll realize a 109-k4 1.98ata is as rare as rocking horse sh**.

[butch2k]

btw DB605DB were authorized mid January 1945, before that only DB 605DM were fitted.

[Krusty]

This grows tiresome. I've made my recommendation. So has Wotan. So has Kev. Hell so has Kurfurst. Others have chipped in as well and a fine discussion has taken place.

However this smells of unfinished (old) business between kurfurst and others (all others?? everyone??)

I'm going to let Pyro and HTC et al make the decision, but for the record I'd say we could benefit from a lesser K-4, not a better K-4. And I fly 109s relatively often, too!

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
100% agree, but I tell you what`s wrong with it : it would result in a balanced setup... Kev doesn`t wants historical or game balance. He wants his side having all the advantages, and the other side being forced to use the worser variants only.

Actually I 100% agree, in which case -

Spit XVI should be at 25lbs boost.
A Spit IX at 25lbs boost should be introduced.
A Spit XII should be introduced.

None will happen, and I'll bet Kurfurst would be the biggest opponent to them.

But we wont get them anyway, Why?

In the first two cases it has already been decided the either of them at 25lbs would be to good for the MA because of their climb rate at low alt coupled with the guns, turning ability and acceleration.

Spit XII won't be introduced because the last thing the MA needs is a low alt Griffon engined Spit screaming around. Yes there were only 100 made but all were operational (more than 109k4 1.98ata, and the TA-152)

So tell me again, who gets the uberboosted aircraft? Bearing in the mind the uberboosted Spit V is being reduced back to a more proper 12lbs.

Just shows how ignorant and assinine your comments are Kurfurst.

In fact what would help is if HT said there would be no planes major or sub-variants allowed under a certain number produced or flown operationaly.
Saying that, each country should be allowed one rare bird (ie one below the figure set by HT).

[1K3]

wooooooo!

talk about very late planes...

Btw OUR La-7 (with 3 guns) was very very rare and AH La-7s (with current peformancee in AH) did not achieve this level of performance until the last few weeks of the war.

(sry, got side-tracted)

[Guppy35]

Spit XII, pretty please, with sugar on top?

Dan/CorkyJr

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Angus
Tuhhh
"It was not a rare plane, unlike the SpitXIV. In fact, it was a major version of the 109 in service in large numbers. "
Yet on the 1st of January 1945, after scraping together almost every sevicable fighter, the once mighty LW amounted to less than a 1000 .
Same story as always, - the illusion that in 1945 the skies were filled with black-crossed aircraft running on uberboosts.

I'd take yer stats with a grain of salt, for what was sent in the air on that morning in Jan 1945 is a very well documented and absolute figure.

You misunderstanding what I'm talking about -

957 Spit XIV vs 1700 K-4 total production.
So yes on that the Spit 14 is rarer.

But Kurfy uses that to justify a perk cost of a specific version (1.98ata)109K-4 of which probably there were only 45 or so.

He has already conceded Jan 45 there were 60 or so SPit 14 at 21lbs boost, so that makes that version of the K4 RARER.

In fact by his calculations current Spit 14 is 15 perks, that would make a 109K-4 1.98ata 20 perks, and thats basing it on Jan 45 Spit 14's NOT April 45.

Anyone have Spit 14 at 21lbs boost numbers in April 45?

Dan- If we got a Spit 12, I'd go down to Dallas and treat ALL of AH staff to a night out at the bar....hello Pyro, Skuzzy etc, listening?
I'd even expect to pay a small perk for it using Kurfys way would only be 5 perks .

[J_A_B]

For the purpose of making a game, shouldn't parity be more important than strict historical numbers?  

War isn't fair; indeed, the entire point of a war is to make it as unfair for the other guy as possible.   Make a game that way, however, and you'll have a game nobody wants to play.  A game needs to be fair.  When you're making a game based on a historical situation which was NOT fair (the end of WW2), then you have to make choices.

If the Spit 14 and 109K can be expected to be common adversaries in AH2 and in ToD, then identify reasonably common versions which match up well against each other and other contemporary models.  The point shouldn't be to try to gain the advantage for your own pet ride (and BOTH sides are guilty of this in this discussion), but to identify which model will "fit" in with the rest of the set the best.

Both sides of this discussion seem to agree that 1.98ata 109K's were only present in relatively small numbers for the last couple months of the war.  As such, the 1.8ata 109K becomes the logical addition as it was vastly more common for a much longer and more important period of time.  Which boost value for the Spit 14 will result in an airplane which will match up nicely against the 1.8 ata 109K in the AH2 / ToD environment?

I don't know the performance figures for +18 and +21 lbs boost Spit 14's off the top of my head.  Can someone give me the rundown?

J_A_B

[Kev367th]

J_A_B

Thereby hangs the problem.

Perk the Spit whatever it's boost is at, have the 109K-4 free?

If your going to perk the Spit and leave the 109K unperked, it has to have something over the standard 14.

Usual excuse is it so easy to fly a Spit - not my problem.

Not my problem Mr Mitchell produced a plane that flys with you whereas Willy and Kurt produced a plane that flies against you.

Not my problem hispano produced an excellent cannon.

I'm all for parity, but at the first sign of Spit with decent performance its either, you can't have it, or perk it.

Meanwhile the cry goes up for a specific 109 version that is rarer than a virgin in a red light district, and unlike a lady of the night they expect it free.

[MiloMorai]

Kev that was total production. War time production til VE-day was ~750 Spit XIVs. Hard to get an accurate number as some of the production orders ran from before to after VE-day unless one checks every serial number in StH.


Krusty, it is always unfinished business when we are told the warped Hungarian version WW2 history continually. Dispite being shown the error of his conclusions, he still comes back with the same parroted misintereptations and manipulations like a skipping 33.

Yes it is tiring but would rather have him spreading his version of history to the unknowing of the world. Yes I have seen some use his data and then been shown the 'real' truth. They then relized they had been given a 'snow job'.

[Kev367th]

Ah CC thanks for the correction.

From another Kurfy rant - proposed changes

OKL, Lw.-Führüngstab, Nr. 937/45 gKdos.(op) 20.03.45

No. Unit Present type Convert to Notes
1. III./ JG 1 Bf 109 G-10 He 162 (April/May) -
2. II. / JG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
3. III. / JG 3 Bf 109 K-4 no change -
4. III. / JG 4 Bf 109 K-4 no change -
5. IV. / JG 4 Bf 109 K-4 K-4 -
6. III. / JG 5 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
7. IV. / JG 5 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
8. III. / JG 6 Bf 109 G-14/AS K-4 when deliveries permit -
9. II. / JG 11 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
10. I. / JG 27 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
11. II. / JG 27 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
12. III. / JG 27 Bf 109 G-10 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
13. I. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
14. III. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
15. IV. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
16. II. / JG 52 Bf 109 G-14/U4 K-4 when deliveries permit -
17. III. / JG 52 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
18. II. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change -
19. III. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
20. IV. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
21. I. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-14/U4 K-4 when deliveries permit -
22. II. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
23. III. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
24. III. / JG 300 Bf 109 G-10/R6 via K-4 to Me 262 planned, deadline
25. IV. / JG 300 Bf 109 G-10/R6 via K-4 to Me 262 -
26. I. / KG(J) 6 Bf 109 G-10/R6 K-4/R6 when deliveries permit -
27. II. / KG(J) 6 Bf 109 K-4 K-4/R6 when deliveries permit -
30. I. / KG(J) 27 Bf 109 G-10/R6 K-4/R6 when deliveries permit -
31. I. / KG(J) 55 Bf 109 G-10/R6 - -
32. II. / KG(J) 55 Bf 109 K-4 - to industrial defense
33. Ist Italian FG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
34. IInd Italian FG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
35. IIIrd Italian FG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -

So 20 out of 32 "When deliveries permit" didn't in fact take place, yet we are supposed to quite happily go along with the 4 "boost increase to 1.98ata" did.
I have no problem in conceding that some must have been boosted to 1.98ata (never said anytihng else), what I won't concede is that everyone of the remaining 79 usable K-4 were (his argument). Especially in light of the previuos document that clearly states converisons were going on SLOWLY.
Any logical perosn can put it all together and safely say yup there were K4's at 1.98ata, but it isn't going to be all 79 of them, prob lucky if 1/2.

Unless Kurfy can produce 1 single document that proves otherwise. Not assumptions, not guesswork just one cold hard piece of evidence.

An example Kurfy - I claim that in May 1944 2 ENTIRE Spitfire sqns converted to 150 grade fuel.
Proof - http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no1_25lbs.jpg
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no165_25lbs.jpg

Easy aint it.

Unitl then Kurfy, stop spewing your garbage.

[J_A_B]

"Perk the Spit whatever it's boost is at, have the 109K-4 free? "

Assumming you find a version of Spitfire which matches up well against the rest of the plane set, I see no reason why it'd have to be perked just on the basis of its being a Spitfire.  The argument made by some is that with early models like the Spit 5 and Spit 9 being so popular in the MA, virtually any later model added would rapidly become even more dominant.  It isn't really "hate" which drives people's opinions on the Spit, so much as fear of what it might do to the MA--fear which is fueled by memories of the freely available F4U-1C and the fact that the SPIT tag is already really common.

I don't know what boost value the current AH Spit 14 uses, but the plane certainly warranted a perk tag as it was one of the most dominant fighters in the set when it was introduced.  However, the "unperked performance threshold" has gradually crept upward with additions such as the LA7 and P-47N, so there is certainly room for debate as to whether the Spit 14 in AH2 is still truly a "perk quality" aircraft.  A lowered price should reflect this.

The key for the MA is to try to find a Spitfire which fits in well with the other AH2 fighters.  This is what you appeared to try to do in the thread about the clipped Spit 16.  For ToD, it is likewise important to find models which display some level of parity with their expected opponents.  This is where the 109K figures into the discussion--it has to be pretty competative with any opponent it can be expected to face in ToD.  Let's face it--traditionally in AH, Spitfires are simply better than their 109 counterparts and usage confirms that.  This might be fine for the MA, but that won't work for ToD.

How do various models of late-war Spitfires match up against a 1.8ata 109K4?  For that matter, how does the 1.8ata 109 stack up against other late-model Allied fighters?  Does it perform well enough to justify its existance, or does it need to be 1.98ata in order to not be pointless?  

Since the Spits and 109's haven't been added yet but the P-47's, P-38's, and P-51's are now their final form, those American planes can serve as a useful "basis" to compare potential additions against.

J_A_B

[Kev367th]

The only Spit that matches up against a K4 is a 14 (uses 18lbs boost). Yet Kurfys own site shows the K4 is supposedly superior at all alts.

all the others (remodel)-
IX 1942
V -1941
I - 1940

The XVI and VIII are low alt versions and don't compare with K4 in any form.

The whole problem with the Spit/109/190 lineup has been the mismatch, up until recently (remodel) we had the choice of 1942 and earlier Spits or pay for a 1944 Spit 14.

We proposed a Spit lineup minus rare eg (Spit 7 etc) lineup and Pyro who had been monitoring the thread agreed with 99% of it.

Maybe we should have asked for stuff like Spit VII's,XII's etc, but we wanted to keep it to a REALSTIC minimum.

Seen some 109 suggestions with up to 10 aircraft!!!! Most including the 1945 last 2 months of war K4 1.98.
Hell and we can't even get a full boost free late 1944 Spit XVI or even a full boost (25lbs) May 1944 Mk IX.

In Pyros own words - "No place for a 2000HP Spit XVI", so why would there suddenly be a place for a rarer 2000HP K4 1.98ata?

Re: TOD - I assumed this was going to a realistic re-creation of a European campaign. To say aircraft should be included/excluded based on a competitive basis kinda deafeat this wouldn't you say. We will see 262's yet under your premise they shouldn't be in TOD, nothing is comaprable to a 262.
Nor would we see the early war Spit V vs 190 matchup (pre F IX), comparbale in terms of performance very rarely happens.

What you can find is a representative historical opponent be it superioir or inferior. It swayed both ways during the war. A last two months of the war K4 is hardly a representative version of the aircraft. Maybe 2 versions? A lightly perked 1.80ata and a heavier perked 1.98ata version.
Using Kurfy own logic - 1.80ata @ 10 perks, 1.98ata @ 20 perks, that I would have no problems with.

i.e based on total production spit 14 should be 1.5x the cost of a K4 1.8ata

Spit 14 (18lbs) - 15 perks / K4 1.8ata - 10 perks

Based on 21lbs boost vs 1.98ata  #s are approx 60/40 in favour Spit 14
so if we now have a spit 14 at 21lbs still at 15 perks the K4 1.98 comes in at 20 perks.

Now slighly reduce the price of both lower boosted Spit 14 and K4 and I think we have an amicable solution?

Summary
Spit 14 18lbs - 12 perks
K4 1.8ata - 8 perks
Spit 14 21lbs - 15 perks
K4 1.98ata - 20 perks

Reflects numbers available, to be more accurate would need # Spit 14 21 lbs boost Mar 45 NOT Jan 45.

Of course its not amicable they want their K4 FREE

Fairness , equality, lol.