109 K-4 with 1.98ata

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Kev367th

e)1.98ata boost was cleared late February
But not ordered/proposed until 20 Mar according to docs. In fact a German document dated 19 Mar listing unit, equipment and fuel shows no K4 unit on C3.
So we know prior to 19 Mar B4 was the fuel for K4 units.


Apologies poor quality, to see it well you need to print out then blow it up.

In fact the paper you have shown DO NOT show ALL Bf 109s units, there are quite a few more than just that.

In fact it just shows one of the Luftflottes out of the many, Lflotte 6 if I take it out correctly.

Most important of all, it doesn`t show any of the units that were ordered for use of 1.98ata/C-3 : it doesn`t show the JG 27 or JG 53 at all.

Moreover it`s funny to state that a 19 March doc, which doesn`t show all units (far from it) anyway, would tell what was the feul situation on October, November, December, January, February, April, May...

Of course, if I`d show an October to December 1944 doc for MkXIV squadrons, it would show none of them has 150 grade fuel. That was a period when it was not available to them, but it`s stupid to say so it wasn`t avaiable in August 44 or in 1945 either.

[Kurfürst]

Just to see what`s the fuss all about... 1.8ata K-4 vs. 1.98ata K-4.

SL speeds :

595 kph vs. 607 kph

SL climb :

22 m/sec vs 24.5 m/sec...

Basically, the effect of higher boost disappears for speed over 6000m, and for climb over 5000m, as the higher boost can be maintained for relatively lower altitudes by the supercharger.

[Angus]

Hey Izzy, sometimes you take a fit. Well, here's a letter for you.

From yourself:
"Angus - I think you misunderstand me. The 109K itself wasn't a rare plane, BUT a 109K-4 with 1.98ata was a rare plane.

Not it`s not, even if you parrot it like a madman. "

And the letter:


I have not seen anything that proves that there were ever any of those in combat.
Doubtlessly tested though.
I will check though, for I think it's an interesting thing, - i.e. where at were the ultimate 109's IN SERVICE when the war ended, - or at all.

As far as numbers count, you can calculate as you want, WW2 still ended with the LW in ruins, and it had more or less been so for half a year or more.

Remember once again the slow "truck convoy" to Arnhem where some thousands of aircraft made it through at very slow speeds without an interception. then again and again, with rather little losses to the LW. (worse to flak)
Remember the operation Bodenplatte, where the LW, after saving it's aircraft quite a bit could muster some 800, - one day later they had like 600 or so.
Remember that many an allied pilod flew a whole TOD without ever getting into a firing range of an enemy ac.
So keep calculating untill you have some 1000 109K's all servicable at the end of the war, and please be happy about it.
Going to sleep,  -gotta storm Iwo Jima tomorrow.
Best regards
Angus

[MiloMorai]

Only pure unadulterated dreaming/speculation on your part Kurfy the K-4 units received C3 because Italy got some.

Again you pick and chose what you want to fit your uber German agenda and TOTALLY ignore what others, such as Butch, say about C3 fuel avialability.

You are also having another of your convenient memory lapses. There might have been Avgas in storage but the units had a/c sitting on the ground because AvGas could not be delivered to them. You might be able to get away with your bs methods in court with unknowledgable jurors but not here.

Every Fw190A required 50% more fuel to fill its tanks than what the uber 109 needed. Now which a/c type would get preference? Not your uber, greatest fighter a/c of WW2, for sure.

You wanted numbers for 87-100 fuel numbers during BoB, which had proof given, which you ignore, naturally, so produce some numbers for those 4 Gruppen for C3 fuel deliveries. Oh, I forgot you don't need to supply proof like others even though you require others to do so.

You are playing with the statistics again. Facts :
4 Wings were ordered to convert to 1.98ata
these had 142 aircraft
out of these 79 were operational at the moment of filling out the report

So are you Kurfy for it was an order to convert, NOT that the order had been complied with. Only pure speculation  on your part all those K-4s had been converted to 1.98.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Only pure unadulterated dreaming/speculation on your part Kurfy the K-4 units received C3 because Italy got some.

Well some guys are speculating the 109K units that were to run on 1.98ata had no C-3 fuel, and they have no proof.

OTOH, we have proof that even those 109 units had C-3 fuel weren`t even running on 1.98ata.

How about showing the fuel deliveries of 150 grade to units? For how many RAF Sqns is there proof of receiving shipments of 150 grade fuel, let`s see... ZERO?

You are also having another of your convenient memory lapses. There might have been Avgas in storage but the units had a/c sitting on the ground because AvGas could not be delivered to them. [/B]

I see.... so about 100 000 liter of C-3 fuel just.... er.. evaporated from the fuel tanks in a few days..

Every Fw190A required 50% more fuel to fill its tanks than what the uber 109 needed. Now which a/c type would get preference? Not your uber, greatest fighter a/c of WW2, for sure.[/B]

Now that`s REAL proof, lololol.

You wanted numbers for 87-100 fuel numbers during BoB, which had proof given, which you ignore, naturally, so produce some numbers for those 4 Gruppen for C3 fuel deliveries. [/B]

Oh I am sorry I must have missed those... because you know, every time I asks our dear friend Neil Stirling about that, he suddenly goes MIA... like being scared of the subject.

So are you Kurfy for it was an order to convert, NOT that the order had been complied with. Only pure speculation  on your part all those K-4s had been converted to 1.98. [/B]

Well not anymore speculation than Spits running on +25 lbs or +21 lbs boost.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Kurf�rst
Well some guys are speculating the 109K units that were to run on 1.98ata had no C-3 fuel, and they have no proof.

OTOH, we have proof that even those 109 units had C-3 fuel weren`t even running on 1.98ata.

 K-4s COULD NOT RUN 1.98 without C3 AND MW50.
We do? Only pure speculation on your part for you have not given any C3 delivery quantaties to those units. It is up to you to show real proof with official documents.

How about showing the fuel deliveries of 150 grade to units? For how many RAF Sqns is there proof of receiving shipments of 150 grade fuel, let`s see... ZERO?

Start a new thread.


I see.... so about 100 000 liter of C-3 fuel just.... er.. evaporated from the fuel tanks in a few days..

100,000l is only enough fuel for 166 Fw190A without drop tank sorties. Or 142 109 sorties with drop tank. It would be gone in only a couple of hours.


Now that`s REAL proof, lololol.


The expected dumb reply. The 190A had preference on C3 fuel, not your uber 109 @ 1.98.


Oh I am sorry I must have missed those... because you know, every time I asks our dear friend Neil Stirling about that, he suddenly goes MIA... like being scared of the subject.

Why do you expect Neil to reply when all we see is another of your name calling beserker rants?. It would not matter if he did, for you would ignore/write it of as more lies, as you do always.


Well not anymore speculation than Spits running on +25 lbs or +21 lbs boost.

21lb boost was cleared as of July 1944. Now we all know you think the Brits are bumbling idiots. You have been shown proof that it was used, but in typical Kurfy denial style you ignore.

Come on Kurfy show C3 production numbers from Jan to May 1945. Give us numbers of C3 delivery and to what units. This a 109 tread not a Spit thread so stop derailing the thread when you are up against the edge of the cliff.

When are you going to fix the discreptency in your article?

12.     III. / JG 27      Bf 109 G-10
III./JG 27       Bf 109 K and some 109 Gs


So what is it G-10 or K-4?

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
Well some guys are speculating the 109K units that were to run on 1.98ata had no C-3 fuel, and they have no proof.

OTOH, we have proof that even those 109 units had C-3 fuel
weren`t even running on 1.98ata. [/B]

If your referring to your webisite, all you've proved is that C3 was available for 109's in Italy..NOT Germany.
Look a few posts back I posted a document that shows German 109K-4s as of 19 Mar were running B4 fuel.
Of course this doesn't account for the 109G-10's running C3/1.98ata for Operational Testing (they are listed as doing this on the doc).
So you may want to correct your websites " It is not known if and how many units had converted to 1,98ata before that order came", because according to that doc - it was ZERO, they weren't even running C3.

Originally posted by Kurfürst

Well not anymore speculation than Spits running on +25 lbs or +21 lbs boost.

On countless occasions you have been shown squadron records and logs showing Spits converted over to 150 grade, so its hardly speculation. Is it.
Heres just one to refresh your memory.
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/no1_25lbs.jpg
Thats speculation...lolololol.
Still one more than any single K4 (never mind squadron) you have ever proved ran 1.98ata.


On the other hand despite your claims in this and other forums and having been asked to provide evidence, as of this time you have provided nothing.
I'm sorry a document proposing conversion to 1.98ata does not quite show ACTUAL conversion to 1.98ata.
Or is it we have to show Spits at 25lbs but are supposed to be happy with a lot less that that from you?

Of course solution is simple, post your evidence.

Milo - Don't hold your breath, been that long that he has had plenty time to post any evidence.

[Wotan]

all you've proved is that C3 was available for 109's in Italy..NOT Germany.

Who do you think was supplying ANR with 109s and C-3 fuel? the Greeks..? How about the Somalis..? Maybe the Chileans..?

Go ahead take a guess...

Also Horst Petzschler's  Bf 109G-10 of JG51 (Regensburg built w/ 100-type cowling - Wnr. 130297 Gelb 5 + 0297) can be seen on the web or in 'Bf 109 at War' page 92.

This G-10 had it's under carriage painted a dark color. This quite possibly be red-brown primer or "winerot" which was typically used on those 109s using C-3. This suggests that this 109G-10 of 11./JG 51 (Petzschler was in 10./JG 51 and its been suggested that he 'stole' this aircraft from another pilot to escape the advancing Soviets, he had 'engine trouble' and crash landed in Sweden. The pilot he stole the plane from was captured and interned by the Soviets) was using C-3 fuel.

As I told you several times the fact that C-3 was used by 109 units isn't in question. It's just a matter of how many and how wide spread.

But this is your red-herring no one who plays AH expects a 1.98 ata K-4. Stick with the 'why does the world hate Spitfire threads...'