Author Topic: Is the rank system pro LA7, vulch & camp ?  (Read 2224 times)

Offline Stone

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Is the rank system pro LA7, vulch & camp ?
« on: August 11, 2005, 06:40:36 AM »
Just wondering if the in game rank system seems to be pro LA7, vulch & camp style of game play?

Landing 3 kills in an LA7 or 3 kills in a C202 seems to be valued the same in the ranking system.

Offline eskimo2

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Re: Is the rank system pro LA7, vulch & camp ?
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2005, 06:44:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stone
Just wondering if the in game rank system seems to be pro LA7, vulch & camp style of game play?

Landing 3 kills in an LA7 or 3 kills in a C202 seems to be valued the same in the ranking system.


The LA-7 will likely rank you a bit higher because it will do more damage with its guns and will get you home quicker: higher K/T & damage points.

eskimo

Offline Schutt

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Is the rank system pro LA7, vulch & camp ?
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2005, 07:33:47 AM »
As far as i know the ranking does not care which eny plane you fly, so flying tempest all the time would be quite good for the rank.

Offline 99taylor

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Is the rank system pro LA7, vulch & camp ?
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2005, 09:38:58 AM »
you get a lot less points for 3 kills in a la7 then in a 205.

Offline dedalos

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Is the rank system pro LA7, vulch & camp ?
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2005, 09:41:11 AM »
Yep,

Get kills in a 202 you get a lot more points.

Also,  the ranking system is not pro LA7.  Its more of a  pro 190, vulch & camp style of game play
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline whels

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Is the rank system pro LA7, vulch & camp ?
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2005, 10:13:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by dedalos
Yep,

Get kills in a 202 you get a lot more points.

Also,  the ranking system is not pro LA7.  Its more of a  pro 190, vulch & camp style of game play





actually  rank is more pro, kill/die routine.  it helps rank more to go kill a couple or 3 and die quickly then to kill the same 3 and rtb.
people who spend the time to rtb actually get hurt more in rank then the guys who dies repeatedly,  unfortunantly.

Offline Zazen13

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Re: Is the rank system pro LA7, vulch & camp ?
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2005, 10:25:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stone
Just wondering if the in game rank system seems to be pro LA7, vulch & camp style of game play?

Landing 3 kills in an LA7 or 3 kills in a C202 seems to be valued the same in the ranking system.


I'm going to assume you are speaking specifically of fighter rank. For fighter rank the 5 sub-categories are:

1) Kills per Death
2) Kills per Sortie
3) Kills per Time
4) Hit %
5) Points (Damage)

So, for each category there is an optimal aircraft flight characteristic that affects it, for example.

1) K/D-The single biggest plane attribute that effects this statistic is speed, that is the ability to engage and disengage at will from virtually every other plane in the plane-set.

2) K/S-There are three plane attributes that effect this statistic, ammoload, gun-type and fuel-load. The more ammunition and/or cannons equates to a better K/S along with flight endurance provided for by fuel load.

3) K/T-There are two few factors that effect this statistic. First, is climbrate/acceleration, the quicker you can get to combat altitude the quicker you are in the fight, this pertains to re-alting mid-flight as well. Low altitude performance is the other factor, if your plane does not require you to be above the majority of your enemy for optimal performance you will require less time to get ailtitude and re-gain it mid-flight.

4) Hit Percentage- There are three plane characteristcs that effect this statistic, ballistics, gun mounting and nose-low deflection view. Typically, nose mounted wepaon systems are easier to hit with than wing mounted ones as convergence is not an issue. Certain munition types have poor ballistics and/or slow rates of fire, these will hurt your hit %.

Something alot of people never consider but I consider of paramount importance in choosing a fighter is nose-low deflection view. If a plane does not have it you are taking away from your repetoire a HUGE number of otherwise valuable high deflection snap-shot opportunities that would otherwise be kills in your pelt pouch. Having a plane with good nose-low deflection view means you will almost never be shooting 'blind', that is shooting at a target for deflection that is actually below the visual obstruction of your engine cowling, this improves your hit % dramatically.

5) Points-There are two characteristics that effects this statistic, ammoload and gun-type. Cannons and lots of 'em make you gather points faster. It would have been better to just call this category Damage. So, obviously the bigger your guns the more actual damage you are doing to a given target. For example, I know this will seem counter-intuitive but a burst from 6X50cals sufficient to remove a wing from a plane will do less damage and therefore garner less points than a burst of 20mm to remove the same wing. My guess is damage either transfers or damage beyond that required to destroy the plane part is still calculated even though passed its threshold for sustaining.

So, from this list of plane performance characteristics you can take a given plane and match it up against them. So, take a plane in the set and take these 9 factors that effect the 5 statistics that go into calculating fighter rank (2 repeat Ammoload and Gun-type) and give check marks where it satisfies the condition. We will use the La7 in this example:

1) Speed- The La7 is the fastest non-perk plane in the set, obviously it gets a CHECK.

2) Ammoload-While the La7 doesn't have a huge ammoload it's pretty plentifull. CHECK.

3) Gun-Type-Most fly the 3 cannon version, CHECK.

4) Fuel Load- The La7 has no capacity for drop-tanks and limited internal fuel, no check.

5) Climbrate- The La7 climbs great up to it's optimal performance altitude. CHECK

6) Low Altitude performance- The La7 is in hog heaven below 12k.CHECK

7) Gun Mounting- The La7 has nose mounted guns. CHECK

8) Ballistics- The Russian cannon's ballistics are not great, no check

9) Nose Low Deflection View- La7 has exceptionally poor nose-low deflection view, most deflection shots will be 'blind'. no check
 
So, as you can see of the 9 characteristics the La7 gets a CHECK in 6 of them, fuel load, ballistics and lack of nose-low deflection view being the only drawbacks to optimal fighter rank. But, due to the La7's great low altitude performance it does not require as much fuel to fight effectively as other aircraft which must get and preserve higher altitudes to be effective.

Of note with this ranking system is one important factor. You will notice that Ammoload and Gun-Type appear twice but are only factored once. This means, relatively speaking, for optimal fighter rank, Ammoload and gun-type are of greater importance relative to any other factor by a 2/1 ratio. It is because of this fact you will notice in any given camp the predominance of cannon equipped planes. There is a huge bias toward cannon planes in the MA in AH2. This is a result of the above as well as the harder gunnery model.

As far as fighter rank is concerned this takes into account the aircraft. But, obviously, the pilot plays a huge part as well. If you take the plane's characteristics as it relates to the 5 statistics that effect fighter rank and combine that with the pilot's flying style as it pertains to the 5 statitistics that go into fighter rank you should be able to approximate anyone's 'potential' fighter rank. Briefly, let's evaluate the pilot characteristics that go into fighter rank just for fun:

1) K/D

a) Altitude-You'll get gang banged less and be able to choose your fights more. (within realistic parameters of your chosen ride's optimal performance altitude relative to the altitude of the enemy)
           
b) SA-You will get cherried less and avoid being gang banged more knowing when to engage and dis-engage.
           
c) Staying fast- Once you get slow you are committed, you lose the luxury of eggressing if the situation worsens, either by you getting outflown or by additional enemies engaging you mid-fight.

2) K/S

a) Vulching- Obviously this is the easiest kill in the game, you can rack these up very quickly if there are enemies dumb enough to up from a CAP'd field for you.
           
b) Re-arming-This will definately increase your K/S, but as is the case wth many of these factors there exists a mutual exclusivity with other factors. Re-arming is time consuming and somewhat dangerous as you remain vulnerable during the process, unable to defend youself.

3) K/T

a) Vulching- Obviously this is the easiest kill in the game, you can rack these up very quickly if there are enemies dumb enough to up from a CAP'd field for you.

b) Fight Low- Another paradox, fighting low and even dying helps your K/T as you do not spend time alting, re-alting or RTB'ing. Suicide warriors have the best of it in the K/T category. Base defenders upping from CAP'd or high CAP'd fields and CV defenders/attackers would fall loosely into this category. Also, the 'runway vulcher' who alts to 10-12k dives past 15 intervening cons to make a few passes up and down an enemy runway vulching before he inevitably gets wacked fits this general profile.

4) Hit Percentage

a) Vulching- A stationary or a slow moving, defenseless target on the ground is easy to hit.

b) Buff Hunting- Bigger target, easier to hit, simple.

c) Get in Close- Closer is better from a lethality and hit % point-of-view.

5) Points

a) Buff Hunting- Buffs take alot of damage therefore they give alot of points if you have the proper weaponry.

Notice 3 things. Firstly, a couple of factors on the pilot's factor list are congruent to factors on the plane factor list, staying fast and Low altitude flying and performance, so you would want to weight these more heavily. Secondly, vulching is the best way to achieve 3 of the 5 statistics with pilot factors, this explains the lust for the vulch in the MA. Conversely, those who do not vulch yet achieve a very high fighter rank are really accomplishing something, they are effectively competing with a severe handicap so must be doing the other things EXTREMELY well to compensate. Thirdly, notice buff hunting appears twice as a means to achieving better rank for both points and hit %. Buff hunting all but requires cannons, another reason cannons are the dominant weapon of choice in the MA.

Anyways, excuse the long post, I'm a statistics nut so enjoy analyzing such things, hope this helps, especially the newer players.

Zazen
« Last Edit: August 11, 2005, 11:22:54 AM by Zazen13 »
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Offline ghi

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Re: Is the rank system pro LA7, vulch & camp ?
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2005, 10:54:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stone
Just wondering if the in game rank system seems to be pro LA7, vulch & camp style of game play?

Landing 3 kills in an LA7 or 3 kills in a C202 seems to be valued the same in the ranking system.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Who cares about rank?  Only those 2 weeks noobs admire the shelfish players vulching at high speed for score on top of the rank list,  
 I admire aces, fighters with skills,  those BK ( bloody  killers) and many others,:)

Offline Zazen13

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Re: Re: Is the rank system pro LA7, vulch & camp ?
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2005, 11:00:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ghi
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Who cares about rank?  Only those 2 weeks noobs admire the shelfish players vulching at high speed for score on top of the rank list,  
 I admire aces, fighters with skills,  those BK ( bloody  killers) and many others,:)


Some people can attain a very high fighter rank and NEVER EVER vulch...;)

Zazen
« Last Edit: August 11, 2005, 11:03:24 AM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
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Offline dedalos

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Is the rank system pro LA7, vulch & camp ?
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2005, 11:08:25 AM »
Zazen,

I thought my job was boring.  What do you do?  Are they hiring? :rofl


By the way, good post but the guy was not asking about fighting.  He was asking about vulching.  D9 is still the best in that category ;)
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Lazerr

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Is the rank system pro LA7, vulch & camp ?
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2005, 11:26:55 AM »
Score is one of the reasons MA gets boring.  People running afraid that they will lose an awesome K/D... who cares :rolleyes:

Other factor is the guys that just really don't give a rip, and fly around with hurricanes and go HO with the closest icon.

An all c202 arena would rule! :D

Offline Zazen13

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Is the rank system pro LA7, vulch & camp ?
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2005, 11:32:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lazerr
Score is one of the reasons MA gets boring.  People running afraid that they will lose an awesome K/D... who cares :rolleyes:

 


This is a HUGE misconception. As stated in my above post within the 5 sub-categories that comprise fighter rank there are alot of mutually exclusive factors. Flying with only K/D in mind totally destroys your fighter rank. The law of diminishing returns kicks in at about 5 to 1 K/D. Anything above 5 to 1 and you're making your fighter rank worse and worse. Flying just for K/D will ruin your K/T and K/S.

The irony is it's the total opposite really. So, long as you can wack 2 or 3 guys before you die, it is far far far better for your fighter rank to never ever live. Flying to die is actually the best, easiest and quickest way to get a great fighter rank as you spend zero time, RTB or re-alting, time you can then spend killing instead.  

Shane is a textbook example of this. He'll take his La7, fly with some E directly into a horde, flail around killing perhaps 3 or 4 of them in short order before finally his E is depleted and he gets chased down and killed. He lands on average less than 10% of his kills yet consistantly ranks in the top 10% in fighter rank. His K/D is always mediocre, generally not even close to the point of diminishing returns of 5 to 1.

Zazen
« Last Edit: August 11, 2005, 11:57:00 AM by Zazen13 »
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Offline StarOfAfrica2

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Is the rank system pro LA7, vulch & camp ?
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2005, 12:14:16 PM »
Good post Zazen, and fairly well thought out.  I'd just like to make a couple of observations of my own.  Not necessarily counter to what you posted, but perhaps.........exceptions.

When you talk about planes with nose mounted guns, and not having to worry about convergence (I believe this is in the section where you are discussing Hit %), I've found that almost all the planes with the nose mounted guns are also the planes with the worst ballistics.  Most all of these planes are VERY difficult for a newer player to hit with, it takes alot of time in the type you chose before you gain anything resembling accuracy.  Hit % is one of the few stats I watch.  Most tours I have somewhere around a .5 K/D ratio, and I'm never in the tops in rank.  I take alot of silly chances (mostly because of my own impatience), but then its just a game and I get to re-up if I die.  And I let myself get drawn into fights I know I cant win just to see how far I can push what I'm flying.  Anyway, I digress.  The point I was going to make is, since I watch my Hit %, I try to find ways to improve it.  The .50 cal guns on the american planes are the flattest shooting guns in the game.  Set properly on convergence, and knowing your POA at that setting, you can land hits every single time you shoot.  There are lots of little things that go into increasing this score beyond your post, like comfort level in the plane you fly, stability of the plane as a gunnery platform, etc.  If I stay in Hogs and Ponys, my Hit % climbs and climbs.  I broke 14% for awhile.  I've flown some 109 sorties and its dropped down to around 11% now.  Anyway, I know its nothing new that there are advantages and drawbacks to every type of plane in the game.  Otherwise everyone would be flying just one.  Just thought I would throw in my .02

Offline Zazen13

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Is the rank system pro LA7, vulch & camp ?
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2005, 12:26:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Good post Zazen, and fairly well thought out.  I'd just like to make a couple of observations of my own.  Not necessarily counter to what you posted, but perhaps.........exceptions.

When you talk about planes with nose mounted guns, and not having to worry about convergence (I believe this is in the section where you are discussing Hit %), I've found that almost all the planes with the nose mounted guns are also the planes with the worst ballistics.  Most all of these planes are VERY difficult for a newer player to hit with, it takes alot of time in the type you chose before you gain anything resembling accuracy.  Hit % is one of the few stats I watch.  Most tours I have somewhere around a .5 K/D ratio, and I'm never in the tops in rank.  I take alot of silly chances (mostly because of my own impatience), but then its just a game and I get to re-up if I die.  And I let myself get drawn into fights I know I cant win just to see how far I can push what I'm flying.  Anyway, I digress.  The point I was going to make is, since I watch my Hit %, I try to find ways to improve it.  The .50 cal guns on the american planes are the flattest shooting guns in the game.  Set properly on convergence, and knowing your POA at that setting, you can land hits every single time you shoot.  There are lots of little things that go into increasing this score beyond your post, like comfort level in the plane you fly, stability of the plane as a gunnery platform, etc.  If I stay in Hogs and Ponys, my Hit % climbs and climbs.  I broke 14% for awhile.  I've flown some 109 sorties and its dropped down to around 11% now.  Anyway, I know its nothing new that there are advantages and drawbacks to every type of plane in the game.  Otherwise everyone would be flying just one.  Just thought I would throw in my .02


Yup, that is true. That is why I seperated the ballistics factor from the gun mounting factor and didn't just lump them into guns. The p38 is a good example of a plane that benefits from nose guns and also good ballistics. But, you are correct, often the benefit of not having convergence issues with nose mounted guns is mitigated by the poorer ballistics of the guns. But, so long as those two factors are viewed seperately the verity of the rating system remains intact.

Zazen
« Last Edit: August 11, 2005, 12:34:48 PM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline hitech

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Is the rank system pro LA7, vulch & camp ?
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2005, 12:52:28 PM »
Zazen3: Nice evaluation but you left out 1 large item in how to raise your Points cat.

Landing  gives you 4 times as many points than if you died.

HiTech