Author Topic: Isreali pullout  (Read 2032 times)

Offline Gunslinger

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Isreali pullout
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2005, 05:44:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FalconSix
They did win france and a couple of other countries fair and square on the battlefield. Why did we liberate those countries, and when we did why didn't we keep them? I mean, are we stupid or something?


this is my last post to you on this subject.

Step 1.  Pick up a history book
Step 2.  Read said history book


I will save you the trouble and summarize:
There was what we like to call a "War" and on the opposing side to the Germans was the Allies.  They were a "group" of people who set out to push the Germans back....and they did.  We "liberated" france" for the french people.

Offline FalconSix

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« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2005, 06:08:35 PM »
Why? We should have kept france to ourselves. We won it "fair and square" from the Germans didn't we?

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2005, 06:34:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FalconSix
Why? We should have kept france to ourselves. We won it "fair and square" from the Germans didn't we?


no the Allied forces did....

EDIT:

DAMN I broke my promise not to respond.

Offline FalconSix

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« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2005, 07:38:43 PM »
;)

Offline VOR

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« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2005, 08:09:51 PM »
It's an olive branch that even the PLO can't deny. On the other hand, let's hope the would-be martyrs don't take credit for it or otherwise smell blood in the water.


Quote
Originally posted by Staga
(Nazies used term "Lebensraum").


Isn't this the second time you've used this analogy in the last few days? Are Nazi comparisons the new fad or something? Seeing it everywhere.

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2005, 08:24:45 PM »
I dont know much, Im just glad Im not a religious zealot.  

Those folks (religious zealots) will end up getting everyone killed.
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Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2005, 08:36:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FalconSix
They did win france and a couple of other countries fair and square on the battlefield. Why did we liberate those countries, and when we did why didn't we keep them? I mean, are we stupid or something?


Good point. But I seem to remember Russia keeping a country or two after the war for a bunch of years.

Remember. like it or not "We" included the Russians. At least during the war.

Why didnt we keep France?

Too many French :D
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Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2005, 08:42:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
I dont know much, Im just glad Im not a religious zealot.  

Those folks (religious zealots) will end up getting everyone killed.


Religious zealots from both sides.

LOL the more I see this situation the more I wish we would have just given the Isrealies Puerto Rico.
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Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2005, 10:54:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
National Borders in this day and age are fixed. With Kuwait, the word went out.. cross a border with an Army, yer gonna get yer bellybutton kicked.



Except if it's in Africa of course.

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2005, 10:58:41 PM »
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Except if it's in Africa of course.


Or the US if you are Mexico.

Offline Rino

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« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2005, 10:59:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FalconSix
Does that rule apply to all nations (like Germany, Japan, Iraq, NK etc.) or just Israel?


     I musta missed the part where those countries won their wars.
Oh well, don't let a little logic spoil your ideology.
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Offline bozon

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« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2005, 04:58:46 AM »
Nashwan got it right and his quote is good.

1948 lines are just that - cease fire lines, not borders. Israel's 1st international border is the border with Egypt from 1982. Next was the border with Jordan in 1995 and 2000 with Lebanon (marked by the UN, but Hizbulla still does not approve).

This leaves parts of the 1967 occupied territories - Gazza and Judia, inside Israel's international borders. Technically, there's no difference between land won by war in 48 and this land won by war in 67. The countries that lost these lands (Egypt & Jordan) do not want it back and they do not want it for the exact reason Israel is pulling out of them now - the Palestinians.

Israel is pulling out for the sole purpose of its security and future, not because it is immoral to occupy it. It is immoral to make the life of 3 million Palestinians miserable though, but making them Israeli citizens is equal to Israel comitting suicide as a western, democratic or jewish (what ever that means) state.

Knowing Sharon's history, he is not aiming for peace. He is thinking like a general - shortening the defense lines, pulling back vulnerable assests and personal. This is regrouping and redeployment, not an offering of peace. Practicality and common sense over idiology and righteousness - something Israel lost since 1967.

Hopfully, this will set some wheels into motion that will lead eventually to peace. Much will depend on the palestinians now.

Bozon
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Offline hacksaw1

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« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2005, 10:04:02 AM »
Staga,

"Lebensraum"

If you've never been to Israel, then you've never seen the wide, empty spaces in the area called the Negev. Arid, true, but other territory in Israel is arid as well, and has been made cultivatable. David Ben Gurion, leader of the Jewish Yeshuv before 1948, and first Prime Minister of newly founded Israel after 1948, hoped that Jewish immigrants would settle the Negev. This land is within the 1948 cease fire lines. It has remained relatively unsettled till this day. So, there was no need for "Lebensraum" in newly captured territories after June of 1967 or 1973, because Israel already had areas that could be settled. The settling of territories captured in 1967-1973 was for other reasons. The political left in Israel did think in terms of land as a buffer and as a bargaining chip:

Quote

•  The Israeli government believed that certain settlements could serve a useful security purpose as a buffer against future attacks like the ones in 1948, 1967, 1973
•  Some Israeli officials felt that building settlements, and thus creating facts on the ground, might hasten the day when the Palestinian Arabs, presumably realizing that time was not on their side, would talk peace


The political right however, hoped to hold on to captured territory permanently. The political right came to power under Menachem Begin in 1977. So prior to that, left leaning Israeli governments had already promoted settlements. Neither the left nor the right saw settlement as immoral or illegal. Indeed, the original League of Nations Mandate to Britain in 1922 permitted Jewish settlement in the territories that Israel later captured in 1967. Don't think much of the League of Nations? Sorry, that was what there was in those days.

Sharon was a disciple of Begin and for decades promoted the idea of permanently maintaining Israeli sovereignty over territory captured in 1967. He surprised many people in Israel, right and left, by declaring a unilateral withdrawal from Gaza. But as Bozon states, Sharon did not do this as a sign of "peace" per se. He did it to unload Israel from direct reasonability of some 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza. The Palestinian Authority, established in the early 1990's as a result of the Oslo Accords signed by Israel and the PLO will have to deal with its population's needs, hopefully using some of the donated billion or so that Arafat stashed in his own pocket. Sharon also chose Gaza and not the West Bank, I believe for several reasons, one being that Arafat and his Fatah were not as strongly supported in Gaza as in the WB. I see Sharon's choice of Gaza was a strategic move to weaken Arafat's influence. Hamas is not great, but they don't have total control either. What are the Gazan's getting out of this? One thing for sure that they are not getting: a negotiated settlement with Israel. Maybe one will come along though.

Skydancer, please take a few moments and read this. The Jewish Yeshuv, i.e. Israel, recognized the right of a Palestinian State in November 1947 when it accepted UN Resolution 181.
 
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/un/res181.htm

Best regards,

Cement
« Last Edit: August 18, 2005, 10:20:44 AM by hacksaw1 »

Offline Nashwan

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Isreali pullout
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2005, 10:44:56 AM »
Quote

Skydancer, please take a few moments and read this. The Jewish Yeshuv, i.e. Israel, recognized the right of a Palestinian State in November 1947 when it accepted UN Resolution 181.


Someone (can't remember who) said that the Palestinians had never internalised the idea of a Jewish state. No matter what they said in 1988, until they accepted a Jewish state in their hearts, there would never be peace.

You can say the same about Israel and a Palestinian state. It's just as true that Jewish leaders in 1948 saw partition as a neccessary first step to a Jewish state in all of Palestine. And it's just as true that until now Israelis have not accepted a Palestinian state in their hearts.

The truth is, both sides still want it all. Hopefully, the bloodshed of the last few years has convinced both sides that they will have to settle for something less.

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Neither the left nor the right saw settlement as immoral or illegal. Indeed, the original League of Nations Mandate to Britain in 1922 permitted Jewish settlement in the territories that Israel later captured in 1967. Don't think much of the League of Nations? Sorry, that was what there was in those days.


They might not have seen it as illegal, but it was, and the rest of the world saw it that way.

Using the Mandate as justification is a bit weak. The mandate expired in 1948 (47?), and anyway the mandate made clear: "nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine"

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Sharon also chose Gaza and not the West Bank, I believe for several reasons, one being that Arafat and his Fatah were not as strongly supported in Gaza as in the WB. I see Sharon's choice of Gaza was a strategic move to weaken Arafat's influence. Hamas is not great, but they don't have total control either.


This is a major mistake, that Israel has been making for 20 years or more.

I remember seeing an interview with a senior Israeli politician or diplomat in the mid 80s, after the invasion of Lebanon. It was concerning releases of Palestinian and Islamic prisoners. The Israeli position was that the Islamic prisoners would be released early, and generally would recieve favourable treatment compared to the Palestinians, who he described as permament enemies of Israel.

It struck me as folly then, because the Palestinians had a rational dispute with Israel, which could be solved by rational means, the Islamic groups had a religious dispute, which could not be solved.

A few years later Israel was actively promoting Hamas in Gaza, in order to weaken the power of the PLO.

And when the current intifada broke out, it was the PA that Israel destroyed first, and Hamas was largely ignored in the early years.

Israel stands a chance of peace with the PLO, in the same way they have achieved peace with Egypt and Jordan. They have no chance of peace with Hamas.

Peace for Israel will not come by keeping the Palestinians from forming a stable state, it will come from the Palestinians forming a strong state that can control Hamas (and will need to to avoid another war with Israel).

Offline hacksaw1

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« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2005, 12:28:07 PM »
Hello Nashwan

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It's just as true that Jewish leaders in 1948 saw partition as a neccessary first step to a Jewish state in all of Palestine.


You have some quotes for that?

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The truth is, both sides still want it all.


Don't know about that. I see a lot of blue ribbons these days in Israel, not just orange.

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They might not have seen it as illegal, but it was, and the rest of the world saw it that way.


Might be wrong, but I believe the US's policy has been to say that settlements do not promote progress to peace. I don't recall the US ever saying all settlements Israel ever initiated were illegal. I believe the US supports Israel retaining Ariel for example. The US is certainly part of the rest of the world.

Quote
It struck me as folly then, because the Palestinians had a rational dispute with Israel, which could be solved by rational means, the Islamic groups had a religious dispute, which could not be solved.

A few years later Israel was actively promoting Hamas in Gaza, in order to weaken the power of the PLO.

And when the current intifada broke out, it was the PA that Israel destroyed first, and Hamas was largely ignored in the early years.

Israel stands a chance of peace with the PLO, in the same way they have achieved peace with Egypt and Jordan. They have no chance of peace with Hamas.


I think the idea was to make the PLO cry uncle long enough to find peace. Not saying I agree with the policy.

Regards,

Cement