Discernment vs Judgment?

[Westy]

Really? You may want to check into his audience has before making any claims as to who he speaks for and who likes what he says.

 As for "He is no more of a Christian figurehead than I am" youve got be be kidding or being facetious.  Or legally blind or deaf.
 
 As to his words carrying no more wiehgt than yours? Now I know you're slinging buckets of cow dung.
 When has anything you said made international headlines? When has anything you've ever said or posted brought about White House denial and distancing? When has anything you have ever stated made headlines in over 600 newspapers worldwide?

 As for my example of irony and hypocrisy using the fictional Islamic cleric for example? Just ignore it as it's clear it sailed way over head.

[Jackal1]

Naw, it didn`t sail over my head bro, but I believe the concept religion not making one bit of difference when it comes to threats or enemies does yours. It`s not religion, it`s the man or group of people and the threat. I could care less what religion any enemy of mine is.
  I`m sure I could make national headlines if I so desired. I believe most people could. All you have to do is come out with something majorly controversial concerning recent events, etc. and be willing to be made out as a lunatic or complete idiot.
  The fact that the whitehouse and politicians denounced his statement should give ya a hint.
  Anyone can make headlines. Media is just itching for some mud to sling, no matter what the source. If it makes headlines, it makes money. That is all matters to them. Right/wrong, contributing to the population or damaging anyone just doesn`t enter into the picture.
  Look at the Mom that was in the headlines overnight by going to Crawford and acting a total idiot.
One day before this nobody knew or cared who she was.
Out of the blue and into the black.
  It`s been interesting reading your viewpoints. Especialy that you think the population puts so much stake in Robertson.
  Robertson is just another goofball that has a TV show to make money from the weak of mind. Nothing more. The majority realizes this and pays him or many more like him any attention and certainly doesn`t follow his word as the gospel or correct. I`m amazed you think they do.
Peace.

[storch]

Imprimis I haven't read  or heard that statement being made by Mr. Robertson directly.  I have heard it attributed to him but not conclusively.  Forgive me for disbelieving much that is printed or reported in the mainstream press.  However if Mr. Robertson did in fact make those statements then he is completely out of line.  Killing anyone for their political belief is anathema.  But don't let that stop you from trashing all Christians for it, by all means continue.

[Simaril]

OK, let me put it simply and definitively:

Regardless of what Pat Robertson calls himself, calling for assassination is 100% directly in conflict with what Jesus taught. His call is incompatible with Christian doctrine or belief.




However, there are a good number of Muslim clerics who use direct Koranic references to claim that Mohammed calls for violence against enemies of Islam. It is indisputable that Mohammed used warfare for religious expansion during his lifetime; Jesus did not, and the gospels specifically record Jesus telling his right hand man to "put away the sword."


If you are interested in Biblical references, I'll get 'em by the cartload -- but I suspect you're not, because it sounds like you're mind's made up. I am in no way an expert in the Koran, and am fully dependent on what I read about it for info (as are most of the BBS readers).

Simple question: If "christian extremists" are no different from muslim ones, please respond with references to fatality lists from christian terrorist actions.



As much as it pains relativists to consider, some things actually are meaningfully different -- and acknowledgeing that is not bigotry.

[Gunslinger]

many notable imams (SP?) and muslim clerics preach hate speech every day.  There's even more than a few muslim schools that pander to terrorists and actually train them.  Mosques are used as recruitment centers for radicals to carry out terrorism in the name of islam.

One figure head of cristianity talks about assasination of somone and it's front page news.


Islam = teh bad
islam = christianity????
 
therefore christianity = teh bad????

yea you guys make alot of sense.

and as a christian I don't agree with what he says nore do I condone pipe bombings of abortion clinics.

[Chairboy]

Originally posted by Simaril
Simple question: If "christian extremists" are no different from muslim ones, please respond with references to fatality lists from christian terrorist actions.

There are the easy ones, like the Oklahoma City bombing, which was to avenge the deaths of the Branch Davidians, a christian cult.

There are the 200,000 muslims killed by christian serbians, both uniformed and not, during the 1990s.

There are folks like Eric Rudolph, who bombed abortion clinics and other places in the name of Christ and with the tacit support of congregations nationwide.  Stephen John Jordi is another.

The KKK is a protestent organization that did things in the 20th century that would meet modern classifications of terrorism, but trying to reverse engineer the label onto them would be self defeating.

There's the 'Lord's Resistance Army' in Uganda that kills, murders, and more in the name of Jesus.  Same with 'God's Army' in Burma.

Please surprise me and acknowledge that the implicit statement in your 'question' of 'there are no christian terrorists' has been properly refuted.

[Munkii]

Originally posted by Simaril
Simple question: If "christian extremists" are no different from muslim ones, please respond with references to fatality lists from christian terrorist actions.

I'm not sure how many have died by christian terrorists, but I know they attack smaller targets, such as Abortion clinics as opposed to embassy's and the WTC.  I'm sure many have died and many many more maimed in attacks on abortion clinics.

[Simaril]

Originally posted by Westy
...snip...

Fact is he is a fundamental, extremist nutjob and is calling for the murder of a head of state.
Fact is he is a hypocrit and prrof of how in this day and age Christianity has thier extreme, hate mongoring radicals

Is Robertson's statement consistant with Christianity? Absolutely not. It is in no way a Christian statement, regardless. Period. He'd have a hard time defending sanctity of life arguments after this, and his feet should be held to the fire until he recants one position of the other.


Question: if he happened to also be a Boy Scout, and spouted off such nonsense, would the Boy Scouts be worthy of smearing?

Answer: No, because the Boy Scouts have nothing to do with his position.

I trust the allegory is obvious.

Originally posted by Westy
...snip...
 And I think it ironic that if he were a cleric from the Middle East you about a dozen others (add in the Christian prostheltysers) on this board would calling for a nucular bomb to be dropped on the lot of em.

  Westy, I understand you're worked up over this, but I hope you'll back down on this generic statement. You have slandered me by including me as a "proselytizer" and saying that I'd call for retaliatory mass murder -- without provocation or any basis in fact.

First, I challenge you on the very term Proselytizer. I have never sought to convert anyone on this board. I have stood up for my beliefs, and I've tried to explain why there seem rational to me. Where I come from, this is considered rational discourse, exchanging ideas. And for the record, I work professionally and closely with muslims, christians, and atheists with absolutely no problem. I do not froth, despite your implication.

Second, I have never advocated murdering another person. I'm a Christian, but I'm also a physician. I deal up close with death and pain regularly, I know what they look and smell like, and I'm firmly opposed to both on principle.


If others somehow linked Christianity to retaliatory nuclear strikes against terrorists, I challenge them now to show biblical foundations for such a call.










The founder of my faith humbled himself, bypassed the cultural elite, and verbally trashed the religious establishment -- while he cared for the poor, oppressed and the diseased. Not all faiths can say that -- so lets be honest and admit there are some fundamental differences.

[Simaril]

Originally posted by Chairboy
There are the easy ones, like the Oklahoma City bombing, which was to avenge the deaths of the Branch Davidians, a christian cult.

can't pin that one on me -- the minute Koresh called himself the son of god, he passed out of the realm of christianity. And the terrorists relied on a warped libertarian view of Jefferson more than christianity anyway -- i recall the one guy was wearing a shirt quoting TJ's comment on the guillotine's free use in France: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time
to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." I'd argue that shows their motivation was more political than religious.

Originally posted by Chairboy

There are the 200,000 muslims killed by christian serbians, both uniformed and not, during the 1990s.

Again, I'm gonna refute this one. I've never seen any evidence that this genocide was triggered by religious fervor -- and I doubt you have either. This was an ethnic cleansing. The line in the 90s had it that the difference between Bosnian muslims and bosnian christians was that the muslims didnt go to mosque on Friday and the christians didnt go to church on Sunday.  

Originally posted by Chairboy
....snip.....
The KKK is a protestent organization that did things in the 20th century that would meet modern classifications of terrorism, but trying to reverse engineer the label onto them would be self defeating.

I dont know about that -- I think they were pretty clearly a terrorist organization. They were, however, clearly motivated by race, not by religion. They did twist religion to give them cover, but they were protestant in name only. The Blacks they killed were often more christain than the KKK. The modern KKK is a racist organization period.

Originally posted by Chairboy
There are folks like Eric Rudolph, who bombed abortion clinics and other places in the name of Christ and with the tacit support of congregations nationwide.  Stephen John Jordi is another.

....snip.....

There's the 'Lord's Resistance Army' in Uganda that kills, murders, and more in the name of Jesus.  Same with 'God's Army' in Burma.

Please surprise me and acknowledge that the implicit statement in your 'question' of 'there are no christian terrorists' has been properly refuted.

Dont have any direct knowledge of the 3rd world groups, so cant say if they're motivated by their faith or not. Would love some references of you have them.



The US dudes are terrorists, motivated by a warped view of christian doctrine.


EDIT: I missed the tacit support line; love to see your evidence for that. Everyone I know -- and everything I heard -- was firmly on the side of the horrified condemnation generally held.
/EDIT




But you've warped what I said too. I never claimed that there were no Christian terrorists, nor did I imply it. I asked you to show how christian extremists were the same as muslim ones. They clearly are not.

Christians doing violence in the name of religion are directly disobeying their founder's explicit instructions. This is why the leaders of a huge majority of christians condemn violence aginst abortion clinics, etc.

Neither can be said with regard to muslim extremists.

[Silat]

Originally posted by Westy
" How bout leaving Christianity and religion out of it?"

 That's impossible when that nutjob Robertson is a Christian extremist.



 "I'd like to ask them directly what they think of Robertson's Chavez comment. "

 A gaggle of em can be found in the topic from July "Comparing Islam to Christianity"

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=155078&highlight=white

I think its a herd of lemmings Westy:)

[Silat]

Originally posted by Jackal1
You answered that yourself with the second quote.
  It`s not even close to impossible. Robertson may be a nutjob and can be viewed as such without religion being brought into it. He doesn`t speak for , nor represent the majority or anywhere close to the majority of Christians or any other religion. It doesn`t enter the picture.
  What does enter the picture is the statement.
  I agree he is a nutjob.
  I also think that the no assasination crap is just that, crap. If  someone is giving us a load of it, off em. Simple. Saves lives, money, etc. After all , it`s been done before so pretending it is against policy is a wagon load of BS.

Pat reaches and gets support from millions of christians.
http://www.patrobertson.com/Biography/index.asp
He has consideral influence and power to shape opinion.

[Simaril]

Originally posted by Silat
I think its a herd of lemmings Westy:)

That thread refernces some of my posts; read what I said here.


How does my stand qualify for lemming status?



Which brings up an important point: no one can lead where no one will follow. Just because some christians think of Robertson as a leader, dont expect them to obey his commands like some Oz- like flying monkeys.

If you guys' assumptions are correct, Disney should be bankrupt -- didnt the SOuthern Baptists, the largest fundamentalist protestant group in the US, have a decade long boycott of Disney? The "mindless christians" quietly ignored their "leaders" because they disagreed with the stand. The same will happen to Robertson if he tries to lead "christians everywhere." He doesnt, cant, and won't.

[Westy]

" Vice President Jose Vicente Rangel said the U.S. response to Robertson would be a test of its anti-terrorist policy and that Venezuela was studying its legal options.
 â€śThe ball is in the U.S. court, after this criminal statement by a citizen of that country,” Rangel said. “It’s a huge hypocrisy to maintain this discourse against terrorism and at the same time, in the heart of that country, there are entirely terrorist statements like those.”
 Rangel called Robertson “a man who seems to have quite a bit of influence in that country,” adding sarcastically that his words were “very Christian.” He said the comments “reveal that religious fundamentalism is one of the great problems facing humanity in these times.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9047102/



religious fundamentalism is one of the great problems facing humanity in these times.

lol.  You don't say...

[Nash]

Originally posted by Jackal1
Robertson is just another goofball that has a TV show to make money from the weak of mind. Nothing more. The majority realizes this and pays him or many more like him any attention and certainly doesn`t follow his word as the gospel or correct. I`m amazed you think they do.
Peace.

Oh?

VIRGINIA BEACH, Va., January 20, 2005-- The 700 Club's average daily audience, according to AC Nielsen's November sweeps, is up 26% over last year. At a time when most daily shows are struggling The 700 Club is experiencing tremendous increases. November's average daily audience of 922,000 households is the highest in ten years and we experienced the same success in October and November.

...

The 700 Club is a live television program that airs weekdays before a studio audience from the Christian Broadcasting Network's (CBN) broadcast facilities in Virginia Beach, Va. On the air continuously since 1966, it is one of the longest-running programs in broadcast history and can be seen in 95% of homes in America. Hosted by Pat Robertson, Terry Meeuwsen, Kristi Watts and Gordon Robertson, with news anchor Lee Webb, The 700 Club is a mix of news and commentary, interviews, feature stories and Christian ministry. The program is carried on The ABC Family Channel three times daily and is seen in 104 million homes by local broadcast syndication. It is seen daily by approximately one million households and over 17 million over the course of a month.

[Gunslinger]

you guys are right.  He's got a HUGE following.  That automatically makes all christians terrorists???

I know I got it, we can have EACH and everyone of his audience members sign a petition saying they don't like what he said and christianity is saved right?

I'm a christian and this guy doesn't represent me.  I've honestly never heard him speak.