Author Topic: The Ultimate God / Creation Question  (Read 1473 times)

Offline Charon

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The Ultimate God / Creation Question
« Reply #45 on: August 23, 2005, 01:40:08 PM »
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If the universe were solely the product of purely natural processes there is no logical reason why sentient beings who are solely natural products should ever even come up with the idea of an Almighty Creator, much less base their entire life on the understanding that the Creator sustains the universe at all times.


Seriously, why not? Our forefathers’ (all the way back to pre-humans) slightly superior intellectual edge, and the fingers and opposable thumbs to magnify that edge, further develop through natural selection. Eventually, a few million years later, we reached an ability through that superior and growing brainpower to have the luxury of free time not devoted strictly to survival, and the ability to devote time to "big picture" issues and develop models on how it all began. Passing off the unknowns on a "catch-all" creator was a convenient answer to those initial ponderings.

Paleolithic cultures developed religions based on nature and animals. That was part of their daily life, and the core to daily survival. Bronze-age religions (Judeo/Christian/Islamic etc.) seem to have developed models based largely on the early civilization structures. Look at the Old Testament. The vengeful god is an awful lot like they typical king of the day - Obey or pay the consequences. Strict rules and requirements, subservience. There are eastern religions that are quite different. There is no single "creator" model.  

It took key developments like language, writing, agriculture, stable civilizations, extended travel (exposure to new cultures, technologies and ideas) to allow the growth of science. To take one small known fact, record it, distribute it and allow someone else to explore that fact and build on it creating new facts and sometimes turning old facts into falsehoods. The writing was on the wall by the end of the Bronze Age. The “obvious” hand of the creator in everyday “miracles” began to disappear. Why hasn’t god parted a Red Sea anytime lately? She sure the heck was busy for a few thousand years, then -- poof! (Of course, many events where the creator made her presence known, even in antiquity, happened in a 1 on 1 private encounter with the prophet of the day… hmmm) Where is the creator in modern times?

Charon
« Last Edit: August 23, 2005, 01:45:42 PM by Charon »

Offline myelo

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The Ultimate God / Creation Question
« Reply #46 on: August 23, 2005, 01:44:12 PM »
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Originally posted by ChickenHawk
I think the difference is that the chariot thing was a passing fad ....


...until science came up with a better explaination.
myelo
Bastard coated bastard, with a creamy bastard filling

Offline Charon

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The Ultimate God / Creation Question
« Reply #47 on: August 23, 2005, 01:47:51 PM »
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...the belief in one Creator has always been there throughout history


Nope.

Charon

Offline hacksaw1

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The Ultimate God / Creation Question
« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2005, 03:14:59 AM »
Hello Charon,

You ask,

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Seriously, why not?


And recount typical naturalist views of human development.

The problem for the naturalist is that if the universe is solely the product of natural processes, then those processes produced a universe full of delusion. And because this universe is "all there is" there is no external standard by which to measure or establish truth. How then can any naturalist believe they see more truth than anyone else when they themselves are just as subject to the pervasive natural delusion factor of the universe as anyone else. Observational Acuity? Right! A few decades ago dinosaurs were tail dragging, cold-blooded lizards. My how they've evolved in 40 years. Again, why should anyone trust the pronouncements of naturalists more than anyone else, since all are hopelessly trapped in a universe that promotes delusion, if, according to the naturalist, this universe is a result of natural processes and is all there is.

For the Theist there is an Almighty, Immutable Source external to the universe and superior to it. Nor is the universe solely a result of natural processes, but includes an inherent ability to recognize the Source, the Creator, should creatures have a desire. The Source uses the process of Revelation to reestablish contact with creatures in the universe and to establish a standard for observing the universe. Creatures who dismiss the possibility of contact with the Creator are left to devise a world-view that has no external standard for truth.

That is the difference, and that is why the naturalist, even with curious stories of primitive development into more complex, can never claim a hold on truth. The universe the naturalist postulates locks them in a delusionary world from which there is no escape. And in effect, the naturalist today unwittingly rides the back of a Theistic world-view based on an immutable external standard of truth, even though he ridicules and denies it.

Best Regards,

Cement

Offline Charon

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The Ultimate God / Creation Question
« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2005, 10:08:47 AM »
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And because this universe is "all there is" there is no external standard by which to measure or establish truth. How then can any naturalist believe they see more truth than anyone else when they themselves are just as subject to the pervasive natural delusion factor of the universe as anyone else. Observational Acuity? Right! A few decades ago dinosaurs were tail dragging, cold-blooded lizards. My how they've evolved in 40 years.


That view morphed as science and study evolved on the subject, and 40 years from now the view on Dinosaurs will likely evolve some more. But, rigid theists, who follow a more literal interpretation of their specific deity, book, myths and legends will not evolve. Dinosaurs will never be added to the Old Testament, for example. Some will try to rationalize an explanation, and some will say demons put those fossils in the ground to test the faith of man (without bothering to prove that demons exist).

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Nor is the universe solely a result of natural processes, but includes an inherent ability to recognize the Source, the Creator, should creatures have a desire. The Source uses the process of Revelation to reestablish contact with creatures in the universe and to establish a standard for observing the universe. Creatures who dismiss the possibility of contact with the Creator are left to devise a world-view that has no external standard for truth.


I don't recall god actually, personally visiting any external truth on the people. Moses has his 10 Commandments, but I guess we have to take his word that he didn't just write them up himself. I don't recall too many mass revelations, witnessed by hundreds or thousands of people. Sure, there were natural events claimed as acts of god, but no real personal contact beyond individual holy men. So it's really hard to say that those are actually external truths, and not just a replay of human views on truth dating from the Bronze Age that people try to make relevant today to suit their own agendas.

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That is the difference, and that is why the naturalist, even with curious stories of primitive development into more complex, can never claim a hold on truth. The universe the naturalist postulates locks them in a delusionary world from which there is no escape. And in effect, the naturalist today unwittingly rides the back of a Theistic world-view based on an immutable external standard of truth, even though he ridicules and denies it.


Those "curious stories" can be touched, examined and analyzed. We don't have to accept on faith that they existed, like we have to accept on faith that Jesus was the Son of God and not just a carpenter with a wonderful life view. We have to accept on faith the human transcriptions of the prophet’s private talks with god, in many cases written tens or hundreds of years after the events were claimed to take place. We have to ignore obvious literal falsehoods, like Noah’s ark. It would make a lot more sense, frankly, if it was claimed god made it for Noah than having Noah make it himself, and that it housed large populations of animals that would actually survive to repopulate the species. Walking down the plank on Mount Ararat, oops, a lion just ate the female zebra. And boy, those polar bears sure look warm, I hope they make it to the Arctic circle in good shape... Scientific Method or blind faith -- which has the greater potential for delusion? You can prove delusion using science, and you can easily cover up delusion with faith.

Personally, I don't dismiss the ultimate possibility of a creator. It’s hard to grasp how the secular, scientific universe first started out of “nothing” just like it’s hard to grasp how god was created out of nothing, what he was doing before he created Earth, and where she has been ever since. I think the we are a long way from answering these questions, and may never answer them with our current brain power. But, the current organized religions do nothing to convince me that their creator models are likely, and not just popular mythology that has survived the ages better than some competing mythologies..

Charon
« Last Edit: August 24, 2005, 10:22:40 AM by Charon »

Offline Apache

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The Ultimate God / Creation Question
« Reply #50 on: August 24, 2005, 10:17:20 AM »
Vulcan must have gotten kicked from another evolution/creation thread.

Offline SkyWolf

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The Ultimate God / Creation Question
« Reply #51 on: August 24, 2005, 05:16:51 PM »
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Originally posted by hacksaw1


That is the difference, and that is why the naturalist, even with curious stories of primitive development into more complex, can never claim a hold on truth. The universe the naturalist postulates locks them in a delusionary world from which there is no escape. And in effect, the naturalist today unwittingly rides the back of a Theistic world-view based on an immutable external standard of truth, even though he ridicules and denies it.

Best Regards,

Cement


Dear Cement,
Human beings are no more important in the big scheme of things than are rats. All Live, all die, all decompose and that's it. When you are dead you are dead. End of story.  I certainly don't mind if you would like to think that you are so important that an invisbile being in the sky loves you if that's what you want.

Mac