RAF 150 octane

[Allan125]

Hi Guys

As a newbie to this forum I have been following the piece with interest, having been directed here from RAF Commands.

Whilst these comments are not about 130 Grade fuel they are about the operating conditions, and thus relevant to fuel usage.

Some comments have been made about the lack of operations of the Spitfire XIV in 2TAF service, and also stated the fact that 126 RCAF Wing did not operate them, when they did.

Can I therefore leave a "few" words in explanation:

Nobody seems to have thought of the terrible weather conditions or poor airfield conditions that 125 Wing, and indeed all the other 2TAF Wings, had to operate through. One of the worst winters in Western Europe for a good number of years.

Or, of course, the fact that these Wings were mobile and whilst a Squadron can fly anywhere it takes time for the ground echelons to be in place.

125 Wing ORB B82 Grave - when 125 Wing was a mixed Tempest V/Spitfire XIV Wing for a short while, before 80 and 274 joined 122 Wing.

2/10/44

Our memories of our last few days in Belgium are somewhat confused. Everything happened at once. We suffered unpleasant shelling, our Spitfires were exchanged with 126's Spitfires, our Squadrons were returned to A.D.G.B. and replaced by two Tempest Squadrons and two Spitfire XIV Squadrons and on top of it all we were ordered to GRAVE. Operations, meanwhile, continued. Indeed 441 Squadron, on patrol just a couple of hours before taking off for England, had the pleasure of damaging one of the Boche's new Me 262 Jet-propelled aircraft. "A" party travelled apprehensively but uneventfully up to the new strip and there sat down to await the arrival of the Squadrons and the "B" party - or the Hun. They were never sure who would come first. Meanwhile Dakota's did a Ferry Service between Deurne and Grave to remove the last of the bodies who were Blighty-bound.

"B" party at half strength struggled manfully to cope with a difficult situation. The Messing Staffs with fewer hands than ever turned out more meals for more people and satisfied everyone. Ground crews who had lived with Spits ever since the Wing was formed had to learn about Tempests the hard way - by experience. And by some odd coincidence during those two or three days we had more visiting aircraft to cope with than ever before. Dakota's, Tempests, Typhoons and Mustangs, all added to the motley array we already had. Eventually, however, everything was accomplished. We said farewell at DEURNE to 132, 602, 453 and 441. We reassembled at GRAVE with 80 and 274 Tempest V Squadrons and 130 and 402 Spitfire XIV Squadrons. By ten o'clock on the 2nd October the Wing was operational. Patrols were taken on and were uneventfully carried through. The only out-of-the-ordinary being the sighting occasionally of Me 262's.

4/10/44

Throughout the day Patrols were continued with the object of intercepting the Me 262's and nine of these were uneventful. On the first Patrol 402 Sqdn sighted 5 ME 109's flying NW from NIJMEGEN at 10.000 ft. A Section of the Spitfires dived to attack but the enemy aircraft evaded in cloud. At 09.30 hours 274 Sqdn saw one ME 262 at 22.000 ft. 6 miles East of Arnhem flying S.W. but they were unable to make contact. On their next Patrol, these Tempests were more successful; they were flying at 14.000 ft when the Leader sighted 5 ME 262's carrying Bombs at 16.000 ft flying westwards towards the bridge at Nijmegen. When our A/C turned to engage them, the e/a jettisoned their bombs in open country and made away eastwards.

One of the Jet Planes when fired on turned on its back and dived down at an angle of 60 degrees and may have crashed after this manoeuvre although no claim is made. It was appreciated when 80 Sqdn. who relieved 274 on Patrol reported on the success of this interception. 80 Sqdn saw a ME 262 at 16.30 hrs climbing from 20.000 ft just N.W. of Nijmegen and were unable to make contact but two of their pilots (F/Lt. Friend and F/O Garland) twenty minutes later fired at 3 ME 109's which they contacted 3 miles N.E. of Nijmegen. The e/a were flying in and out of cloud and no results of the engagement were seen. Another ME 262 was spotted at 17.30 hours over Nijmegen when 402 Sqdn were airborne. It was at 25.000 ft and the Spitfires found it impossible to close on it.

125 Wing ORB - Y.32 Ophoven

19/1/45

First it’s rain, then it’s snow and ice and now it’s a mixture, icy rain and sleet, driven along by a high powered wind. Conditions were impossible for flying. The duty squadron did cockpit readiness from first light, but when the weather became too bad the state was relaxed to 15 minutes, and the pilots were able to stay in the briefing room.

125 Wing ORB - B.78 Eindhoven

30/1/45

Again we have to report a blank day. We awoke to find the countryside blitzed by a blizzard – now we know why these Dutch merchants who sell earcaps look so prosperous.

31/1/45

No operations, a violent thaw, roads rapidly becoming impassable and a frantic search for a new mess before the road dies on us altogether. Quite enough for one day!

This is both an official comment from the 125 Wing ORB (as shown above) and a personal comment from my father who was at 125 Wing HQ from April '44 to July '45 and had to live and work outside, in the main, in these conditions.

Dad was one of the:- "A" party travelled apprehensively but uneventfully up to the new strip and there sat down to await the arrival of the Squadrons and the "B" party - or the Hun."

Also, comment was made about 126 (RCAF) Wing not using XIV's - this is not true as 402 (Winnipeg Bear) Squadron transferred to 126 Wing (at B.88 Heesch) at the end of December 1944, just before the move of 125 Wing from B.64 Schaffen/Diest to Y.32 Ophoven.

125 Wing ORB - B.64 Schaffen/Diest

26/12/44

At the dinner in the Officers’ Mess on Christmas night it was officially revealed that we are losing 402 Squadron from the Wing…..The Squadron moved over into the Wing in September, when with 130, they, as newcomers were able to sample the joys of Grave.

The "joys of Grave" being typical British understatement as the conditions for air and ground crews were terrible.

125 Wing ORB - B.82 Grave

12/10/44

Billets. The hunt for comfort goes on. Five N.C.O’s have made a couple of cows move up and have occupied their stalls. Sixteen ‘erks’ in one farm have got themselves set up in a comfortable hay loft, the only disadvantage being that they have to pass through Mabel’s room to get there. Mabel doesn’t mind.

13/10/44

HAS 125 GOT B.O.? Whereas in the old days 125 always had gaggles of visitors, nowadays the front line airfield is left severely alone. Visitors who do arrive always leave precipitously pleading engagements at Rear or Main or Remote Control Centre. It must be our B.O. – Bomb Orrors.

41, 350 (Belgian) and 610 (County of Chester) Squadrons had been held back in the UK because of the state of both the weather and the landing grounds.

Because of the appalling weather conditions, and the poor state of the landing grounds, it was not until 5 December that 41 Squadron joined 125 Wing at B.64 Schaffen/Diest. The pilots were briefed on a number of occasions on the unfavourable conditions at B.64, but the ground personnel of the Squadron finally left for B.64 on 19 November.

When the squadron 'Air echelon' at last moved on 4 December 1944, the pilots landed their precious Spitfire XIVEs at B.56 Evere, drove to B.64, where they scrupulously inspected the runway and stayed overnight. The following morning, they hitched a ride back to B.56 and flew their aircraft to B.64. They all landed uneventfully, but the strip at B.64 would remain a concern during their whole stay.

350 and 610 initially joined 127 (RCAF) Wing at B.56 Evere, in early December, before joining 125 Wing at Y.32 Ophoven just in time for Operation Bodenplatte.

125 Wing ORB - Y.32 Ophoven

31/12/44

Quite an exciting end to the old year and a much more exciting beginning to the new. Our aircraft from Diest (41 and 130 Sqdns) and from Brussels (610 and 350 Sqdns) arrived at our new base, having operated from our old fields, landed at Y.32 and then continued to work for the remainder of the day. We got no joy, and so far now news has been received of P/O Joseph of 130 Sqdn who failed to return from the last sortie flown by the “Punjabs” on the last day of the old year. Most of the chaps were tired out by the end of the day, but a few remained up to bid farewell to 1944. “Fritz” tried to dampen our spirits with a few bombs and a shoot-up, but at midnight we sang in 1945 with Auld Lang Syne. A few of the windows in our new billet failed to live long enough to let in the light of the new year.

1/1/45

New Year’s Day saw everyone up bright and early and 41 Squadron were away on an Armed Recce when the Hun turned up in some force and proceeded to strafe us and the American strip nearby. Considering everything, his shooting was poor. 350 Squadron came off worse having had seven aircraft u/s but not all badly damaged. 130 had one damaged. Two airmen were wounded and a petrol dump was set on fire. The Wing cannot claim any Huns destroyed over base, but the Americans got quite a few. Just after the strafe, 610 were able to report one FW 190 destroyed by F/Lt Gaze – a good show. The Wing was able to continue work all day and 130, 610 and 41 were constantly in the air on Recces and Patrols, and some Met, Goods Truck and a Signal Box were shot up by 41 Sqdn. Altogether we flew 39 sorties on December 31st and 81 on January 1st.

cheers

Allan

[Angus]

Hey Crumpp:
"However counting aircraft destroyed on the ground as proof of the P47M's combat prowness as a fighter is rather dubious."

Well, the point is that they were in combat, and did see some action yes?
There were  Meteors in action as well, they just never found anyone to play with. Many a pilot finished his ToD in 1945 without ever seeing action, - typical for the state of the LW at the time.
I'd still not call it significant, but definately existent.

This is all rolling in the mud and the point of this thread is long lost.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Bruno
Or what? You will lie some more? Exaggerate more?

From exaggeration, to lying, to idle threats...

Wotan by any other name is still Wotan just the same.

[Squire]

I beleive it was me who made the 126 Wing RCAF comment, it was only a generalisation, you are correct that RCAF 402 did operate the XIV for a time. I was pointing out that as the top scoring Wing in the RCAF, it used Spit IXs for the vast majority of its ops from D-Day to VE Day.

[Angus]

Wotan = Odinn in old Norse/Icelandic
It is a frequent name.
If the Odinn in question has questionable mental health, some have the habit of nicknaming, using Óður instead of Óðinn.
Óður means mad or insane.
Madness can mean Bedlam.
Of course this is all exaggerations and lies.

For a nickchangingshapeshifter"Bedlam" would be a good nick for the next time, yes?

BTW Wotan does fly AH or?

[Crumpp]

Well, the point is that they were in combat, and did see some action yes?

Sure they saw some.  About as much as the He-162 Salamander as I said in the begining.

To characterize the type has having "extensive" combat use is just plain wrong.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Angus]

I bet they had very much more flight hours than the Salamander. And many times more would have been needed to even get into contact with an enemy aircraft....

[Crumpp]

I bet they had very much more flight hours than the Salamander. And many times more would have been needed to even get into contact with an enemy aircraft....

Hey Angus,

I think you might be surprised!

All the best,

Crumpp

[Squire]

The He 162 Salamander did not score a single air to air kill in WW2, despite seeing limited combat.

The Me 163 Komet scored 10, and was essentially a failure.  

The Me 262 Schwalbe was far more prolific, and effective as a jet fighter than either of those two, both in terms of deployment and use, scoring more than 500 kills with its various Kommandos and JG/7 and KG/51.

As for the Meteor, no I wouldn't say extensive combat either.

[Karnak]

I thought the He162 got a Tempest.

[Squire]

Credit was not allowed, it was given to a flak position.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Squire
Credit was not allowed, it was given to a flak position.

Why was credit not allowed?  Who really got the Tempest?

[Squire]

The claim was put in, but credit was given to a flak unit. I imagine the LW intel officer had his reasons . I really dont have any info past that the He 162 put a claim in but that ultimate credit was not officially given by the LW.

[Squire]

Two more to 300 replies wohoo!

Yes, my pleasures are simple.

[Crumpp]

The He 162 Salamander did not score a single air to air kill in WW2, despite seeing limited combat.

You should check into that statement.  It actually got a few.  It's time in service and combat record is easily comparable to the P47M's.

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1153

I/JG 1 was declared combat-ready on 23 April, after it had already claimed one British fighter on 19 April. Feldwebel Günther Kirchner was credited with shooting down a fighter when the captured pilot admitted he'd been shot down by a jet. Unfortunately Kirchner himself was shot down shortly thereafter by another British fighter. At least two other claims were made by He 162 pilots before the end of the war, although only one Tempest V can be confirmed from British records since a number of British aircraft were lost to unknown causes at times and places that match these other claims. At least one and possibly three He 162s were lost to enemy action.

http://pilotfriend.com/century-of-flight/Aviation%20history/WW2/new%20aircraft3/Heinkel%20He%20162%20Salamander.htm

* The He-162 finally began to see combat in mid-April. On 19 April, the pilot of a British Royal Air Force (RAF) fighter who had been captured by the Germans informed his interrogators that he had been shot down by a jet fighter whose description was clearly that of a He-162. The Heinkel and its pilot were lost as well, shot down by an RAF Tempest fighter while returning to base.

On 20 April, a Luftwaffe pilot successfully ejected from a He-162, though the reason for the hasty exit from his aircraft was not recorded. One possibility is that he simply ran out of fuel. The He-162's half-hour endurance was simply not enough, and at least two of JG-1's pilots were killed making "dead-stick" landings after exhausting their fuel.

On 4 May, all of JG-1's surviving He-162s were formed into a special consolidated "Einsatzgruppen (Special Action Group)", but this action amounted to little more than "rearranging the deck chairs on the TITANIC". On 5 May, the Germans agreed to a cease-fire and the He-162s were all grounded.

From mid-April, I/JG-1 had scored a number of kills, but had also lost thirteen He-162s and ten pilots. Most of the losses were from flying accidents, due to problems such as engine flame-outs and occasional structural failures. The difficulties with the type seem to have been due to the fact that it was rushed into production, not that it was an inherently bad design. One experienced Luftwaffe pilot who flew it called it a "first-class combat aircraft".

http://www.vectorsite.net/avhe162.html

Both aircraft had been in the wings waiting to see service in Early 1945.  Neither saw significant combat action and came into service in the last weeks of the war.

Of course neither saw "significant" action.

All the best,

Crumpp