Author Topic: RAF 150 octane  (Read 11419 times)

Offline Angus

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« Reply #270 on: October 01, 2005, 10:06:11 AM »
That should settle it then ;)
I'd maybe still not call it common, - but it's certainly getting closer to significant.
Nice one Milo.
Sending you a P47 pic, - NOW.
What model, I don't know.
You're welcome to post it.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #271 on: October 01, 2005, 10:16:32 AM »
No one said the P47M didn't see 'combat'. That's a proven fact. However, in the over all scheme of things, even that late in the war, to describe it as significant would be an exaggeration at best. Especially for someone who passes themselves off as a 'respected author, publisher and historian'.

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And for you Bruno, stop yer BS.


First off, no.

Secondly, you need to go back and read the sequence of replies. Widemouth took his shots, I took mine...

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #272 on: October 01, 2005, 10:20:18 AM »
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First claim by a M was a 109 on Jan 14. A further 10 were claimed in the Magdeburg area. On March 14, 2 Ar234 were claimed by Ms. On March 27, 2 Me262s were claimed by Ms.


Probably unlikely as the P47M could not fly away from it's field in Jan. 1945.

Most likely it is just simple confusion between the P47D, which the 56th did keep and fly in combat.

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The problem Widewing, is all of your experience come from one side of coin.


That is such a bad sentence, lol.  When all of your experience comes from one side of the coin it is not necessarily better than no experience at all.

People do not listen to those with no experience.  

Someone with one-sided experience though is perceived as an expert in one area.  They are in a position to do much more harm, as people will listen.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline straffo

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« Reply #273 on: October 01, 2005, 10:32:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
No Problem Angus.




Wide wing,

44-21159 P-47M HV- Lightfoot Lt. Edwin B Crash-landed this, his first assigned P-47M on 21 Jan 45
44-21115 P-47M HV-Q Joy Boy Crashed 13 March 45 - mid-air collision. Details unknown
44-21159 P-47M HV-? Lost 13 March 45 Lt. Richard B Tuttle
44-21197 P-47M HV-I Crashed 3 Feb 1945
44-21125 P-47M LM-S Lost 11 March 45 - Lt. Frank Aheron lost
44-21222 P-47M UN-S Lt. Willard C Scherz KIFA 5 March 1945
44-21126 P-47M UN-S Lt. Samuel F Stebleton Lost 2 April 45 - Mid-air collision.
44-21134 P-47M UN-P Lt. William R Hoffman Lost in this a/c 13 April 45 - KIA - triple A.
44-21230 P-47M LM-A Lost 16 April 45 - Capt. Edward W Appel KIA.
44-21207 P-47M LM-M Maj. Felix D. Williamson Crashed Belgium 17 April 45


So on this whole list we have ONE confirmed combat lost AFTER April, 1944.

Looks to me like the rest crashed trying to get the P47M to work.

This can't be your "proof" the P47M was  used extensively combat.

All the best,

Crumpp


Another interpretation is : the 47M was so superior it had only one combat loss.

And this interpretation is as pertinent and backed by facts as your.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2005, 10:39:01 AM by straffo »

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #274 on: October 01, 2005, 10:50:02 AM »
So now Freeman is liar when it suits you. :rolleyes:

They flew from their base at Boxted because they did not know of the troubles that were to come. The first known identification of a problem occured on Jan 21 when a Lt Lightfoot (61stFS) had an engine failure at 32,000ft and landed at Boxted. (44-21159 P-47M 61 HV- Lightfoot, Lt. Edwin B) The other Ms were inspected and found that there was cracks in the ignition high tension leads.

a/c and pilots for the claims.

44-21134 P-47M 63 UN-P Conger, Maj. Paul A Bernyce  

44-21200 P-47M 62 LM-R Ball, Lt. Sandford N

44-21210 P-47M 62 LM-O Gould, Lt. Norman D

44-21112 P-47M 63 UN-Z Bostwick, Maj. George E Ugly Duckling  

44-21137 P-47M 63 UN-E Crosthwaite, Lt. Edwin M

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #275 on: October 01, 2005, 11:37:39 AM »
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Originally posted by Bruno

First off, no.

Secondly, you need to go back and read the sequence of replies. Widemouth took his shots, I took mine...


The difference is that your "shots" were personal slurs. But hey, I can play that game better than most, although I'd rather not waste energy on meretricious debates.

Still waiting to dazzled by those sterling credentials...

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #276 on: October 01, 2005, 11:43:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MiloMorai
Proof that the LW was scarcer than teeth in a chickens mouth.

Since you are so high on Freeman, quoting him numerous times, read the Osprey book, chapter 7, on the 56th FG. First claim by a M was a 109 on Jan 14. A further 10 were claimed in the Magdeburg area. On March 14, 2 Ar234 were claimed by Ms. On March 27, 2 Me262s were claimed by Ms.


Yes, and after April 2, the 56th went wild. On April 10, two Me 262s downed and 45 more Luftwaffe aircraft destroyed. On the 13th they claimed 95 aircraft destroyed near Kiel (on airfields... Few fighters were encountered in the air).

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #277 on: October 01, 2005, 11:48:00 AM »
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So now Freeman is liar when it suits you.


Where do you see that??

My God, you’re jumping off the deep end.  If your going to put in your signature about reading my post’s, please do that.

This is what, the third time in this thread you have jumped on your misconceptions of my post.

Widewing,

The facts are the P47M's problems were not solved until April, 1945.

Both Widewing’s and O'Leary's findings show this to be true.

How much combat it saw after that is debatable.

Just as I said:

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The operational dates are conflicting. Most have Republic developing semi-reliable fixes in April 1945. Many sources say the type never saw combat while others claim it conducted unopposed armed recons the last two days of the war.


From my very first post written on the subject.  I would have written that some claim the Type was in combat from the day it arrived in Europe and is responsible for single handily destroying the Luftwaffe if that was the case.  Widewings site was included to show the range of claims.

What is everyone so afraid of that they do not even read my post?

If the P47M saw significant amounts of combat and you have the proof....

Why didn't you just say so and present it in your article?

This is the only reference to combat service for the P47M in the article I can find:

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The new M models also suffered a fair amount of teething troubles. The C series engines suffered from high altitude ignition leaks and burned pistons. The 56th kept many of their older D models until the new M had its bugs corrected. Nonetheless, once sorted out, the P-47M was the fastest propeller driven fighter to see combat service in any Air Force in the ETO. Capable of speeds up to 475 mph, the M was a true "hotrod".


http://www.cradleofaviation.org/history/aircraft/p-47/7.html

That statement, BTW, is only true at certain altitudes.  Most of the late war fighters were equal or faster to the P47M at lower altitudes.

The vaunted 350 hours endurance test is not all that remarkable either.  It was good but is the only engine I know of even tested that long.  Most tests simply concluded earlier with no damage at all.   In many cases these engines were installed on aircraft and flown even more!

Not run on a bench until they were useless and tossed in the garbage.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #278 on: October 01, 2005, 12:23:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
The difference is that your "shots" were personal slurs. But hey, I can play that game better than most, although I'd rather not waste energy on meretricious debates.

Still waiting to dazzled by those sterling credentials...

Widewing


Now you a liar, you replied with an ad hominem to my questioning of your use of the word significant. I said it was an exaggeration, and it was.

Here's your reply:

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But not quite as insignificant as you....


Personal slurs? I said you exaggerate and your website is crappy.

Which are truths not slurs.

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #279 on: October 01, 2005, 12:32:02 PM »
Crumpp, you quote Freeman as the bible on 150 fuel but you don't believe that the 56th was flying Ms in Jan 45 and claiming victories. :eek: So Freeman tells the truth when it suits you but is a liar when it doesn't.

To quote Freeman, "In the early afternoon of April 13 48 P-47Ms set out from Boxted making landfall near hamburg 70 minutes later. Flying on to Denmark the group overflew Eggebeck airfield and found it lined with a/c - est 150+ of several types.'

They then proceded to wreck havok on those est 150+ a/c. This was the mission in which Hoffamn was killed when he jumped to low for his chute to open fully. FSs participating > 61st, 62cd, 63rd, ie. all of the 56th FG.

Your posts are still worth reading when one filters out the BS and misconceptions.

You still ignore the RAF site, which has more credibility than your links, that says Crossbow was both offensive and defensive.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #280 on: October 01, 2005, 12:37:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bruno
Now you a liar, you replied with an ad hominem to my questioning of your use of the word significant. I said it was an exaggeration, and it was.

Personal slurs? I said you exaggerate and your website is crappy.

Which are truths not slurs.


Keep digging that hole Bruno...

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #281 on: October 01, 2005, 12:46:04 PM »
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Keep digging that hole Bruno...


Or what? You will lie some more? Exaggerate more?

From exaggeration, to lying, to idle threats...


Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #282 on: October 01, 2005, 01:05:25 PM »
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To quote Freeman, "In the early afternoon of April 13 48 P-47Ms set out from Boxted making landfall near hamburg 70 minutes later. Flying on to Denmark the group overflew Eggebeck airfield and found it lined with a/c - est 150+ of several types.'


Milo,

This looks like another case of you making a mountain out of a molehill.

Freeman is obviously correct if you look at the date it is well after the P47M was released for combat duties.  

The April entry has never been indispute so I am at a loss as to why you felt this passage was even relative to the discussion.

This has never been an issue except in your mind.

However counting aircraft destroyed on the ground as proof of the P47M's combat prowness as a fighter is rather dubious.

The "Crossbow" issue you raised was that "Operation Diver" did not exist.  It did and you were wrong.  

Operation Crossbow was a highly classified program to build, launch, and operate an allied version of the V1 rocket.

Missions to photograph, attack, and perform BDA on the German V weapon program did fall under Crossbow.  The deception that this was the main effort of Crossbow was allowed to stand.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #283 on: October 04, 2005, 06:59:09 AM »
Tell me Crumpp why this document is titled 'Cabinet "Crossbow" Meeting' and not 'Cabinet "Diver" Meeting'?

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/merlin66_18_25b.jpg

Only fighters used in anti-diver missions are mentioned, NO Bombers.

Offline Scherf

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« Reply #284 on: October 04, 2005, 07:49:17 AM »
That docco wouldn't have a page 2 for mossies would it Milo?
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB