Overturning the Gospels

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by Nash
Well....  I'm certainly, something, to hear that you survived your moment of crisis by suckling at the government's tit.

How did that feel? Suckling at the tax payer's collective tit, that is?

Perhaps a better question would be: What if not for the government's tit? Bowls of Alpo for the kids?

See - this is what Government is about. The only reason you pay these bastards is to make your commute easier, to give you a leg up when you need it, and to make regular working folks not have to look at your sorry bellybutton when you're down on your luck. And to ease the pain that children feel when you screw up.

Glad you made it out. Don't bite the hand that fed you.

would you be saying the same thing to me if I was a poor black man in New Orleans?

The difference is that my situation was temporary because the rules do not permit otherwise.  You HAVE to meet with a counsler once a week and he makes sure you are looking for employment.

I really don't get the point you are trying to make here maybe you shouldnt beat around the bush so much about it.

Wellfare in itself is a necesary evil, but when you get familys on welfare they stay welfare.  I don't know why believe me.  

I got off active duty after being recalled and found my job disolved during my absence.  I used the programs available to help me find work to support myself and family untill I could get back on active duty.

I don't spite anyone for being on assistance I spit people for making a career out of it.  There are plenty of programs available to help you get a leg up in life if you  just want to make the effort to use them.

PS $205 a week is hardly suckling

[Nash]

Good for you GS, and Toad - true: SA rocks.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by SOB
Hmmm...I know how to fish, but I don't like to eat them.

somehow I find that hard to believe.  

[Silat]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
Wow this is a troll if I ever seen one.

But just to feed silat so he doesnt cry himself to sleep tonight.  The churches down south did more to help the victoms of the storm than FEMA or the state/city did in the first few days.

I think what the article is missing is this:

"give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for life"

Guns I never cry myself to sleep. And no it wasnt a troll. But I sure do love the Christian love that comes pouring out of you all in here.
Ive cracked the book and Jesus's main message is that you help those less fortunate than yourself.
YOu might actually check the statistics as to how much fraud is in the welfare system before you use the hard right talking points that have you believing the poor choose to be poor.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by X2Lee
some folks are so ignorant to the bible because the havnt cracked its pages ever.

What the bible does say along those lines is

'if a man doesnt work he ought not eat.
 so yeah god will help you if you help yourself

and in america god will help you even if you never worked a day in your life(welfare)

I think if your able to work and you wont you shouldnt be allowed to eat.

Now tell me"cleanliness is next to godliness" where can you find that lil goody?

obtw  LO, Lew.

Please point to the scripture that says, "God helps those who help themselves."

...and while you're at it, find "Cleanliness is next to godliness."


GOOD LUCK.

[Guppy35]

I've fought to major battles with the man upstairs in my life.  First was when I was 22 and my father died of cancer at the age of 45, just before the birth of his first grandchild, my son Andrew.

Second is going on right now as I'm now 45 and I just lost my son Andrew at the age of 21 and my daughter Christina, age 15 in a car accident two weeks ago.

Both times I wanted to find something in my faith to explain it somehow.  And I keep coming back to the same thing.  It was how I was raised, and how I raised my kids.  

Below is a scan from the program from my kids funeral a little over two weeks ago.  It contains the basis for my faith and how I was taught to live my life and how I tried to teach my kids.

It's not judgemental, it doesn't promise me a cookie, it puts it all on me.  "Love thy neighbor as thyself".  

Tough to argue with it.  No promises I'll get thanked for it.  No promises I won't get burned on occasion by people taking advantage of it.

But something strange about it that's been driven home in the last couple weeks as we grieve for the loss of our children.  Kindness gets repaid in kindness.  People from all over have rallied to our side, not asking for anything, not demanding we do something first before they offer help.  They're just being kind because that's the type of people they are.

Funny how that works.  Kinda wish we'd all practice that a bit more.  That Good Samaritan stuff really works

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Damn Dan, I hadn't heard. Words fail me, my heart goes out to you and your family, we will pray for you.

[Ghosth]

"For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in.
I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.

Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?  When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?

The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me."

To all of you who consider yourself Christian I ask. When was the last time you took a bum off the street. Fed him, clothed him, sheltered him?



There are many so called "Christians" today who are really only christian for one hour on sunday.

Then there are many who do not say a word, nor claim to be christian. Yet who quietly live their lives helping others at every chance. Living up to the ideal that so many hold forth, yet fail so  miserably at.

Yes a case can be made for helping oneself. Yet in each persons life there are going to be times when what you can do to help yourself is not enough.
Each man does have a limit.

By the same token anyone who would sit around in the midst of disaster waiting for someone to help them, deserves what they get.

Last, if anyone really desires, I will gladly teach him to fish.  Due to lack of $ I'm afraid they'll have to come to me however.  

[Gunslinger]

oh great so this is were the "non-christians" tell the conservative christians on this board how much they don't even know they're own religion and how they should do more to help.

And they call US hypocrits?

Silat what have you done?  I'm not going to brag about what I've done to help out because I don't have to justify myself to you or anyone else.  All I'm going to say is I do ALOT of voluteer work.  

I don't think the poor want to be poor I think the system is a trap.  Once they are on state assistance and living in govt housing it's hard to do anything else with yourself.

[Charon]

An opinionated secular political perspective.

The Republicans have no vested political motivation to help the poor who traditionally vote Democrat. A business case could be made for potentially greater prosperity with real solutions to poverty, but they would require tremendous effort, disruption, short-term expense, fierce political fighting and may not ultimately provide the appropriate ROI if the resolve fails at some point (or if the specific mechanisms and assumptions get mired in political pork, bureaucracy or just look good on think tank paper but fail when faced with the reality on the ground). Plus, while more empowered consumers would be desirable, their potential new jobs can still (for the most part) be best performed (from a cost perspective) by the super poor working in tightly controlled, low wage places like China. Not enough motivation to overcome inertia.

The Democrats rely on the status quo to maintain their voter base. A balancing act between doing just enough and not too much to keep their support. The same with today's uninspiring crop of minority "leader" figureheads. Absolutely no motivation here because labor has become too weak of a base for them to assume these “new workers” would transition into organized labor.

The poor. If you are born into poverty, and that is all you know, and you get enough just to get by, and there are no really viable options (at least that you see from your perspective) and you are living in the day... then no driving motivation among many. This applies to both rural whites and inner city minorities. I know a touch of this from some limited personal experience. I worked as a freelancer for a couple of years, and eventually things got really slow. But my condo was paid off and I had virtually no expenses (and no real materialism for that BMW I was missing out on) and it was really easy to coast for a while instead of trying to do something about it. And I came from an environment that was middle class, full of opportunities and with plenty of direct, productive role models in my life. We also have some poverty in my extended family. Some work successfully to rise above it and others look at how they can get on disability and ride the system.

The middle and upperclasses. No personal motivations for change just yet. Poverty is isolated from the middle and upper classes in most areas to the degree that you can ignore it. Some change may involve “decentralizing” poverty so NIMBY.

Therefore, hard to see a solution unless things turn really ugly on a national scale at some point in the future, IMO.

Charon

[Edbert]

Originally posted by Charon
A business case could be made for potentially greater prosperity with real solutions to poverty,

I personally do not beleive that the modern definition of poverty can be "solved". I say modern definition because that is the term we see bandied about when they claim that the number of folks living below 'the poverty level" is increasing. But the vast majority of the folk "living in poverty conditions" in the US have central air conditioning, more than one color TV, a microwave, a cell phone, and about half of them have a car and own their single family home outright.

The term poverty gets abused to suit one's political agenda far too much. You want to see poverty travel to a third world nation, where the upper middle-class homes are the ones with cinder-block walls. Did anyone notice how well fed those poor refugees from Katrina are?

There is VERY little true poverty in this country IMO, I think the war on poverty is over, we should declare victory and cancell the "war" which has devolved into little more than a class-hatred thing designed to keep both parties in power.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by Edbert

There is VERY little true poverty in this country IMO, I think the war on poverty is over, we should declare victory and cancell the "war" which has devolved into little more than a class-hatred thing designed to keep both parties in power.

watch out.  Some liberal is going to come in here and brand you a racist since the majority of poverty has a black face.

[lasersailor184]

I've always liked the salvation army.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
oh great so this is were the "non-christians" tell the conservative christians on this board how much they don't even know they're own religion and how they should do more to help.

And they call US hypocrits?

Silat what have you done?  I'm not going to brag about what I've done to help out because I don't have to justify myself to you or anyone else.  All I'm going to say is I do ALOT of voluteer work.  

I don't think the poor want to be poor I think the system is a trap.  Once they are on state assistance and living in govt housing it's hard to do anything else with yourself.

You make it sound so simple.  Funny how you try to divide us between Christian and Non-Christian.  How'd you make the distinction?  Which category did I get put in?

Thought it interesting in the Good Samritan story how Christ mentions the two religious men who walk away from the man in need.  Wonder who he's referring to?

SO you brought it up and then try and duck it saying you don't have to justify your actions?  LOL

Well I've always figured that actions speak louder then the words.  As one of those folks who has worked in the system for the last 20 years, I find your comments on it interesting too.

I've worked with abused, neglected, underprivilaged, etc Teenagers for the last 20 years.  Ironically, considering we're referring to New Orleans a bit, my first two years of combat time in the system were spent as a house parent in a runaway shelter just outside the French Quarter in New Orleans.  That was 24/7 responsibility.  My wife and I responsible for what went on, dealing with crisis phone, walk in stuff along with the 18 kids in the shelter.  Dealt with the project kids a lot.  IT was a real eye opener for a kid from the burbs in Minnesota to see how people were living in those projects.

One thing you find out in a hurry is regardless of the conditions a kid is living in, and the New Orleans projects were nasty, kids will go back to it, because that's all they know and that's where their home is.  It isn't so simple as if they just work hard enough they can rise above it.  They need to be shown a better way of doing it.  And that takes money, time and people.

But of course we've consistantly in the 20 years I've been doing this, watched as the money for programs gets smaller and smaller.  Numerous programs close and the resources are just not there so we don't get to the kids who have a chance.

But of course we happily build more jails to house them once they've become adults.

It's real easy to preach from the sidelines, and hope God or someone else does the work.

I've always figured my actions will speak louder then my words and that I have a responsibilty to my neighbor.

You did kinda leap right over my first reply and focus on old Silat too.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Damn Dan, I hadn't heard. Words fail me, my heart goes out to you and your family, we will pray for you.

Thanks Savage.  Needless to say it's been kinda rough around here the last few weeks.  AH and my old 38G are my escape tool right now.  I can lose myself in it for a bit each night.

Waking up every morning and realizing it wasn't just a nightmare and two of my kids aren't ever coming home hurts beyond anything I could ever have imagined.