Author Topic: Anyone heard this? My local news  (Read 2065 times)

Offline newguy2

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Anyone heard this? My local news
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2001, 09:07:00 PM »
Toad said it for me. Nothing more for me to add.

Offline Naso

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« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2001, 07:21:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad:
We just don't expect to see any of yas down on the field with us.

Today our Defence minister was saying we will deploy troops on your side.

Since he is a politic, and by definition a liar, I dont know if this will happen, it's not my decision.

Only future will show us.

Btw you have presumed something and moved accuses, remember this in future.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2001, 08:32:00 AM »
I haven't presumed anything. (I don't know what "moved accuses" means.... and your English is way better than my Italian, so don't get all upset.)

I'm simply saying that I've always been sure that it will be US troops that do 95% of the fighting in this one. It can't be any other way; we were the ones that were attacked.

Sure, we're getting lots of verbal support. Because that's the easy part.

I'd be very, very happy if the Euro nations would just relieve the US of any and all peacekeeping duties we're involved in with the UN. Just substitute your troops for ours.

We've got something a little bigger going on for the next 30 years. We need those troops and aircraft elsewhere.

I hope that is part of "the plan".
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2001, 10:03:00 AM »
Hm, well, the US are describing this as a "war on terrorism".

We learned in the past and now too that's it's incredible hard to wage war on an adjective. I'm not entirely sure that the word war is appropriate.
 
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War \War\, n. [OE. & AS. werre; akin to OHG. werra scandal, quarrel, sedition, werran to confound, mix, D. warren, G. wirren, verwirren, to embroil, confound, disturb, and perhaps to E. worse; cf. OF. werre war, F. querre, of Teutonic origin. Cf. Guerrilla, Warrior.]

1. A contest between nations or states, carried on by force, whether for defence, for revenging insults and redressing wrongs, for the extension of commerce, for the acquisition of territory, for obtaining and establishing the superiority and dominion of one over the other, or for any other purpose; armed conflict of sovereign powers; declared and open hostilities.

Now there are three passages here that are interesting: redressing wrongdoings, or for any other purpose and declared and open hostilities

But these apply to state vs state issues.

One could argue that we now have a war on terrorism, since we're not going to allow it and will actively go after it. Then again, the same could be argued about the breaking of laws, or to be more specific, war on drug use, war on breaking and entering, war on...ad nauseum.

With the label of "war" comes a great deal of things. First of all, war is incredibly ugly and messy. Deplorable things will happen; in war and love anything goes. It's a Carte Blanche for the use of (excessive) force, for ignoring parts of what under a peace time situation would be important parts of a countrys philosophy.

WWII was pretty straightforward; Germany declared war on the USA and engaged in a war much like the definition above. The Japanese preferred a stealth attack first, but it was a regular war. This one is not a regular war at all. It's more of a huge policing effort with lots of use of military equipment and methodology.

I know the US would like a Carte Blanche check from its US allies - and it has got it from most if not all of the NATO allies. Yet, I feel it is *essential* for each country to be able to individually assess how they want to address the military aspect of the situation. 100% solidarity and support does *not* mean giving up sovreignity or decision making. In addition to this, lots of European countries have constitutions that have to be taken into account - we do not operate exactly like the US. That must be kept in mind when dealing with this.

Last of all, there are elements in society that don't *want* military strikes. And we're democracies - no matter how much distaste I have for people with this opinion, I still have to respect their opinion or vote.

So, Europeans are doing as best they can, but we're internally divided to a much larger extent than the US is. I mean, toejam, we still got communists etc *winning votes* in our parliaments. Sickening but true, unfortunately  :(

So far, Denmark hasn't ruled out lending military support if needed. Of course, we don't have a helluva lot, but what we DO have is a rather large-ish immigrant population and according tosome experts, Scandinavia is a settling ground for terrorists since civil liberties is taken extremely seriously, to such an extent that they aren't terribly bothered by our security agencies.

This will change I am sure. As we speak, or minister of justice is meeting with his European counterparts to find ways of fixing it.

What I'm saying is that there's a lotta factors involved, and the usual "you're either with us or against us" attitude, while understandable, isn't applicable to the real life situation. It's far more complex than that.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2001, 10:17:00 AM »
Like I said, just please urge your politicians to pick up all the US military  committments in Europe. Take the UN peackeeping assignments and accept our temporary withdrawal of forces deployed in support of NATO.

I don't think that's too much to ask. Our military is about 1/2 the size it was right after Desert Storm.

There are going to be links to particular states in this. Iraq is probably the first, but not the only, state that is going to be  identified as having a clear hand in this.

Argue the semantics of war all you like.

This won't end with Bin Laden. It will begin with him, however.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Animal

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« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2001, 12:29:00 AM »
An attack on one NATO nation is an attack on ALL NATO nations.

Its a signed rule each country had to sign when they joined the union.

Offline newguy2

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« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2001, 12:56:00 AM »
animal,

You might want to look over this link.
 http://www.fas.org/man/crs/97-717f.htm

Offline Naso

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Anyone heard this? My local news
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2001, 03:28:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad:
I haven't presumed anything. (I don't know what "moved accuses" means.... and your English is way better than my Italian, so don't get all upset.)

LOL, I used an Italian form in english, sorry.  :)

 
Quote
I'm simply saying that I've always been sure that it will be US troops that do 95% of the fighting in this one. It can't be any other way; we were the ones that were attacked.

Maybe the US troops will do the bigger part of the work (is the bigger army in the west world, by number and weapons).
But I think this crime is an attack to the west world, not only US.
IMHO

 
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Sure, we're getting lots of verbal support. Because that's the easy part.

Again, you presume this verbal will never become real help.
I dont know if you are right or wrong, we will see.

 
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I'd be very, very happy if the Euro nations would just relieve the US of any and all peacekeeping duties we're involved in with the UN. Just substitute your troops for ours.

Europe is doing his part in UN missions, or you think we are'nt?

 
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We've got something a little bigger going on for the next 30 years. We need those troops and aircraft elsewhere.

I hope that is part of "the plan".

Maybe the plan is to fight together (sp? where is the spell checker?)

BTW,
I had good laugh when thinking our army in a war mission.

Did you can imagine, 80% of our army is coscritionary (sp?), young unwilling boys, armed (that's incredible  :) ) with the M1 Garand, LOL, imagine them attacking a group of terrorists with plenty of kalashnikov and M-16.  :eek:

And the terrorists are lucky to not have an airforce, otherwise we will have deployed our mighty F-104s  :D

Just for your curiosity, when I was in airforce academy, the teachers told me Italy primary role in NATO was to slow the Red attack for 24 hours, before falling in theyr hands and get nuked by your response.

This regarding being in front line for 50 years  ;)

Offline Ghosth

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Anyone heard this? My local news
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2001, 07:59:00 AM »
I don't think military help is what the US needs right now. Intelligence, banking records, cracking down on local cells, or any organization that helps terrorism. Now that would be helpful!

I also think it's high time that the US played ALL it's cards. If a country is not being helpful ALL aid is instantly cut off. All US exports to that country cease. All immigration from that country is denied. Let em wither on the vine for a year or 2.

The president has made it abundantly clear on several occasions. Your either with us, or against us. Well anyone who's against us deserves what they get, which should be exactly nothing.