Super vrs Uber

[Angus]

"The British didn't have to transport their supplies through perilous waters with enemy torpedo planes and subs like the Germans did. "

Absolute rubbish! While the Axis held Tunisia goods for Egypt had to be shipped Around Africa ot through the Gauntlet between Tunisia and Sicily.
Getting goods to Malta alone was already quite hazardous.

As for your LW Domination over S.England or as you put it
"They could fly wherever they wanted, period"

At night. The daylight ops in any numbers were called off in the autumn of 1940. After that it was hit&run almost exclusively. They didn't mount escorts to get very far either anyway and unescorted the bombers were already mauled as soon as 1940.
I have seen it claimed that there never was an occation where LW bombers jettisoned their loads and ran for home - surprizingly it didn't take much reading to find it.

[OJespersen]

Originally posted by Angus
Absolute rubbish! While the Axis held Tunisia goods for Egypt had to be shipped Around Africa ot through the Gauntlet between Tunisia and Sicily.
Getting goods to Malta alone was already quite hazardous.

They didn't run the Gauntlet to get to Africa. They did run the gauntlet to re-supply Malta, but Malta is not part of Africa and as such not part of this argument. The British re-supplied its forces in Africa to Egypt, mostly from is colonies in South-Africa and India though the Red Sea. As I said, they DIDN'T face the same dangers as the Axis convoys, and thanks to their stronghold on Malta the British were able to significantly interdict the Axis supply line to Africa.

If you want to see rubbish, just read your own posts.

Originally posted by Angus
At night. The daylight ops in any numbers were called off in the autumn of 1940. After that it was hit&run almost exclusively.

For the benefit of the uneducated I will repeat: They COULD mount daylight bombing over England, but they CHOSE not to. If you cannot grasp this simple concept then so be it. The British were never in a position to mount a significant daylight raid on France or Germany.

[Angus]

Oh dear
"They didn't run the Gauntlet to get to Africa. They did run the gauntlet to re-supply Malta, but Malta is not part of Africa and as such not part of this argument"

How do you get military ordnance to the eastern side of El Alamein? Alexandria? Cairo? Military ordnance does NOT originate in the colonies.
I'll dig up a quote for you tomorrow. I have quite some stuff on the supply war in the N African theater.
BTW, knew a Pilot who took part in operation Torch (Which was not an exclusive U.S. Venture) He sailed to Gibraltar - convoy was attacked by subs en route, - then flew over Malta to Bone.
I have quite much stuff on that really.
A point of interest is that during Torch the fight in Stalingrad is still going on. You have claimed that the Axis decided to let go of the N-African theater, - well still they routed hundreds and hundreds of aircraft from Stalingrad to Tunisia. I belive something similar happened later when Kursk and Sicily happened to be in the same timeframe.
They lost the brunt of their transport force (sorely needed at Stalingrad) while evacuating troops from Tunisia. To patch up at Stalingrad, bombers were pressed into service as transporters.

Then this:
"For the benefit of the uneducated I will repeat: They COULD mount daylight bombing over England, but they CHOSE not to. If you cannot grasp this simple concept then so be it. The British were never in a position to mount a significant daylight raid on France or Germany."

Repeat your BS as much as you want. The LW called off daylight raids over England in 1940 because of appalling losses. Want numbers? A year later the numbers were not any better in their favour at all and with Barbarossa they didn't have the force to do it in any significant way. You should perhaps educate yourself a wee better before yelling out so much crap.
Well, I guess we can always dig up some numbers.
As for daylight raids on France, what targets????? Well, German airfields in N.France were bombed in daylight to provoke a fight. Circus missions. So, it was needed from the RAF side to send attackers such as Stirlings and Blenheims in broad daylight as a bait. I have been bold enough to call it something as "silly". But it was done allright.
It still boils down to distances you know, and had Berlin been 100 miles from the Kentish coast, I bet it would have been in rubble already in 1941.

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Bruno
That's the result of attrition and limited industrial capacity. Allied Air superiority didn't materialize overnight in any theater, it had to be won.

Heh.  Viewed another way, the Germans did fine until their opponents were able to gear up their industries, train their pilots and equip their air forces with modern planes.

Numbers, bah.  The writing was on the wall in the west by the end of Bigweek.

- oldman

[Crumpp]

Heh. Viewed another way, the Germans did fine until their opponents were able to gear up their industries, train their pilots and equip their air forces with modern planes.

True.  Once the allies attained such a vast numerical supremacy it was over.  Just the 8th USAAF fighters outnumbered the Luftwaffe substantially.  Throw in the RAF, VVS, RCAF, and other allied AF's it becomes a wonder they lasted so long in the first place.

US Fighters in the European Theater:





Total Luftwaffe aircraft strength:





Total Luftwaffe losses:



Pilot training comparision:



Sorties flown by the USAAF:



Claims:



Losses:



When you consider the fact that the US alone, delivered more fighters to the RAF than the total strength of Luftwaffe fighters each year from 1941 until the end.  In 1944 England recieved 5449 US fighters!  The same with the VVS supply of US fighters.   The Russians recieved more US fighters than the total Luftwaffe fighter strength each year from 1942 until the end.  

The question is not how the Luftwaffe was defeated, it becomes, "What took the Allies so long to do it?"


All the best,

Crumpp

[Squire]

"What took the Allies so long to do it?"

Quite simply because there was no surrender untill after the Fuhrer bunker was over ran with Soviet troops. Thats why.

The ordinary German people payed the price for the leadership they got. One of the many tragedies of the war.

Even the Japanese, who were the ones with the Kamikazes, had the sense of mind to sue for peace in the summer of 1945.

[Crumpp]

Squire,

True but we are not discussing the ground war.  There was no such thing as negotiated peace with Germany.  The allies determined at the Yalta conference surrender would only be accepted unconditionally.

We are talking about the War in the Air.

How in the world did the Luftwaffe maintain air superiority over Europe until 1944?

The USAAF alone had more fighters in Europe than the entire Luftwaffe form Feb. 43 until the end!

Yet it took a year to wrestle air superiority?

We were giving the VVS and the RAF more fighters than the Luftwaffe almost from the begining.

Compare the Luftwaffe's level of training.  By October 1942 every Western allied Air Force was better trained.

Those stats come from the USAAF btw.

If you study the PACWAR, we destroyed the IJNAF practically in a single engagement once we held numerical superiority.

http://www.nasm.si.edu/getinvolved/membership/pevents/vraciu.htm

Numerically, the Japanese had better odds than the Luftwaffe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Philippine_Sea

The battle started shortly after 1000 on 19 Jun with the first wave of 60 Japanese planes attacking the American fleet. 42 of them were shotdown, scoring only one bomb hit on USS South Dakota. The second wave consisted of 128 planes, and 97 of them were lost without even making any significant damage to the American ships, although Warrant Officer Sakio Komatsu's name must be mentioned for his bravery: immediately after taking off from the Taiho, he saw a torpedo swimming straight for his home carrier. He dropped his plane and plunged into the ocean, intercepting the torpedo with his fighter. He sacrificed himself, and his carrier would be saved, for now. The third attack's 47 planes had a better casualty rate, losing only 7, but they did not make it through the American escort ships, let alone seeing the American carriers. By the time the fourth attack wave of 82 planes were sent, it was already almost 1400 in the afternoon, and 54 of them were shot down.

By the time Ozawa made his way to Okinawa, he counted only 35 carrier aircraft in his fleet.

http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=10

All the best,

Crumpp

[Squire]

"True but we are not discussing the ground war. There was no such thing as negotiated peace with Germany. The allies determined at the Yalta conference surrender would only be accepted unconditionally.

We are talking about the War in the Air."

We are all WW2 aviation buffs here, and so, not surprisingly, we discuss that topic over most others, naval and army histories. Thats fine, thats why I post here, and enjoy good debates.

That being said, nobody believes that air campaigns in WW2 were anything more than a supporting act to the armies involved, either by economic attrition (strategic bombing), or direct tactical support. Berlin cannot be captured with Spitfires, or P-51s, or Yaks.

*******************************************

In regards to all the other data you give, maybe you should be asking why the Japanese did so poorly. It wasnt called "The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot" for nothing...

As far as the USAAF in Europe, well, its simply a matter of logistics. The USA was not even at war with Germany untill Dec 1941, and had no combat planes in England at all. Im sure you have enough books of your own that covers the buildup of the 8th AF units, and missions they flew over Germany from 1943-45. I wont bother posting what I know you have already. Suffice to say that they simply didnt snap their fingers and have 2000 crewed combat planes ready to go in Jan 42.

The 1st P-47s did not even begin flying into Germany with drop tanks untill July 1943. P-51s only just came into service in Dec 1943.  It wasnt untill the spring of 44 that the 8th AF had the #s and a/c types needed to fly large scale escorted missions over Germany in daylight.

[Karnak]

As I understand it the Marianas Turkey Shoot happened when we caught their forward training area and massacred their trainee pilots.  You also have to look at the failure of Japanese training doctrines.  The Japanese pilots were, on an individual basis, probably the best in the world when the war started.  To get that they had an incredibly lengthy and rigorous training system that most prospective pilots washed out of.  Once that core of elite pilots was lost the training system could not come close to producing trained pilots at the rate needed for the war and by the time they started to loosen training standards to something like the west it was far too late.

In addition to that the Japanese, like the Italians, emphasized individual pilot skill, not team tactics.  The Luftwaffe, USAAF, USN, USMC, RAF and RN all emphasized team tactics rather than some solo Samurai glory bull****.

[OJespersen]

Originally posted by Angus
How do you get military ordnance to the eastern side of El Alamein? Alexandria? Cairo? Military ordnance does NOT originate in the colonies.

*lol* You actually think Military ordinance and equipment originated from the British isles?  Perhaps if the U-boat commanders knew that they wouldn't have prioritized the ships inbound to the UK laden with goods fuel and armaments.

Let's see ... South Africa: South Africa's domestic arms industry originated in 1940 with the appointment of an Advisory Committee on Defense Force Requirements to study and to assess the country's military-industrial potential. Relying on its recommendations, the government, with British assistance, established six factories to produce or to assemble ammunition, bombs, howitzers, mortars, armored vehicles, and electronic equipment. A number of private companies also produced weapons during World War II.

And please don't tell me that you don't know India was (and still is) a MAJOR arms manufacturer? Don't you know where the "Dum-Dum bullet" comes from? It comes from the Dum-Dum Arsenal near Calcutta, India. They invented the infamous round in the 1800s. India was a HUGE supplier of arms and ammunition during WWII and along with South Africa and Australia supplied the British forces in the Far-East and Africa.

Wake up and smell what you're shoveling Angus. You're a farmer, you know what it is.

[Angus]

Ok DeWilde ammo came from India?
Spitfires came from South Africa? P40's? P38's? Hurricanes?
Aviation fuel? Spares? Bombs?
Tanks? Tracks? Jeeps? Trucks? Amphibs?
Enfields? BAR's? M1's? Tommy guns? Howitzers? 50cal Brownings?

You're holding a straw now. Maybe a Dum-Dum inside yer head?
Will be back with a quote.

[Angus]

edited - was a triple post

[Angus]

Edited, was the 2nd of the triple post

[Angus]

Edited 3/3.
The whole post is the next.
Have no idea why it kept uploading.

[Angus]

Back for the giggle round. This one also had me tickling:
"Perhaps if the U-boat commanders knew that they wouldn't have prioritized the ships inbound to the UK laden with goods fuel and armaments."
Now you mentioned shovelling, you just made a hole for yourself.
The US-UK convoys were a priority, later on the sub war moved to the US waters, then as well onto the Murmansk routes, and, - the Med.
Goods were freighted US-UK US-USSR, UK-USSR, UK-MED and US med, - for Egypt convoys were routed past the south cape.
The med was a tough place for both Allied and Axis convoys and many a ship went down, - even big ones.
Lookie here - HMS Barham, - torpedoed by sub:


And here HMS Ark Royal, Torpedoed by sub:

And this is already in 1941. To say that Allied ships didn't have to sail through perilous waters in the med gives a good statement on your "education"
To get as far as Libya say alone Egypt, the gap between Tunisia and Sicily needed to be crossed, - a preferred way was to skip it and take the long road. Clear as daylight and a well established fact. Not quite without danger though. The U-Boats were quite active outside Portugal as well. At a stroke of faith a subpack was hunting a convoy (where they sank 13 from 37 ships) outside Madeira at the same time as the invasion force for Torch was en route to Gibraltar.
(From Martin Gilbert's second world war, p.373)
Same author P. 376:
"Hitler fearful of a drive to Tunis, hurried German troops to Bizerta on November 9. Three days later British troops landed at Bone. The Struggle for  Tunisia had begun.
Retaining his grip on Tunisia would enable Hitler to deny the Allies the short sea route to Egypt and India and compel them to use the very much longer route round the cape."
Quite a lot of troops were actually airlifted from Sicily on that day at the order of Kesslering. Obviously Hitler did not want to give up the N-African theater yet, he moved 500 aircraft there (4/5 from the USSR) as well as several hundreds of transport aircraft, - as mentioned before pressing bombers into transport role at Stalingrad,- Görings words on that were "There died the core of the German Bomber fleet"
So enough of that for now. Happy