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Author Topic: Super vrs Uber  (Read 19244 times)

Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #300 on: October 12, 2005, 01:48:59 AM »
Subtle Humble lol.

Hell look at the upcoming scenrio,
Initally all Malta had was some Hurris and 3 Gladiators, they failed there also.

In fact much later after the Spit V had been delivered and Malta was secure one German officer commented something along the lines of "The Malta Spits are at it again, they are running circles around us."
I'm sure someone can come up with the exact details.
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Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #301 on: October 12, 2005, 03:30:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Crumpp
Your flamebaiting Milo.

Either that or you just ignorant of the FW190 design.

All the best,

Crumpp


Read your whole quote Crumpp. The 190 never easily outstriped the Merlin Spitfire in performance.

The only time the Spit was at a disadvantage was with the Mk V. Once the Mk IX came along they were pretty much equal up to 20,000ft and from then up the Mk IX was better.


This is what the handbook says about the ETC501: If the a/c is to be flown without the bomb release system, the ETC501 carrier, with integral ETC501 fairing and Bulkhead 4 suspension fittings must be removed. In the same way, the electrical leads, the fuel line leads, the air pressure lines and the emergency release cable to the underfuselage trough are no longer necessary.
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #302 on: October 12, 2005, 04:00:04 AM »
Crumpp: Look a little better into Spitfire's performance and compare the ultimate Merlin powered ones to a 190A series aircraft in service at the same time. Their performance curves should be criss-crossing, the Spitfire holding the cards at high altitude.
If you look at a bird like the Mk VIII you are looking at a fighter that has decent range and full tropicalization, tops up at 410-420 mph, manages 5000 fpm climb, and hits 20K in some odd 5 minutes. in 1943. Can the 190A5 match that? (Or whatever the most common 190 in 1943 is)
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Charge

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« Reply #303 on: October 12, 2005, 04:23:18 AM »
Gup:"But again, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by traditional advantages."

I guess that Crumpp meant zoom climb, roll rate and high speed maneuverability which are bound to the design differences between FW190 and Spitfire. I'm pretty sure he didn't mean stuff like high alt speed, medium and low speed level turn performance and E-retention...

Or what do you think?

;)

-C+
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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #304 on: October 12, 2005, 06:16:23 AM »
Hey Milo,

Which translation and which version of the Flugzeug-Handbuch are you looking at?

You do know that each one is different.   Each version is slightly different.  Each translation comes out somewhat different as well.  However it certainly helps to have some pilots who flew it to cross check.

Is this going to be like the Zustatzkraftstoffbehälter im rumpf or fuel/timing?

Quote
E-retention...


Thank you, Charge.  Good god, and the Spitfans think the 109 fans are bad.  

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: October 12, 2005, 06:28:26 AM by Crumpp »
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Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #305 on: October 12, 2005, 07:53:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
If you look at a bird like the Mk VIII you are looking at a fighter that has decent range and full tropicalization, tops up at 410-420 mph, manages 5000 fpm climb, and hits 20K in some odd 5 minutes. in 1943. Can the 190A5 match that? (Or whatever the most common 190 in 1943 is)


From what I have seen, the Mk VIII falls short of these speed and climb data you claim for it, esp. trop ones. It has the exactsame engine as the MkIX, and is heavier... why would it climb faster, or even as fast ? All data I have seen show almost the same speed as the IXs, ie. 400ish top speed. THe FW 190A-5 from what I have seen was somewhat faster at altitudee, quite faster at low alts, and of course climbed quite a bit worser (being a much heavier plane with smaller wings), ie. 3800-4000, whereas IXs climbed 4650, and the VIIIs were probably worser, being 300lbs heavier..
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Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #306 on: October 12, 2005, 10:46:34 AM »
My mistake Kurfurst -

F.21 460mph @ 25,600ft not 20,000ft as I said.

More than 3,000 F.21s had been ordered when the end of the war brought drastic cuts and only 120 were built - enough to equip four squadrons. A few were fitted with contra-rotating propellers, which eliminated skidding and made the aircraft very stable as a gun platform.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2005, 10:49:02 AM by Kev367th »
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Offline Bruno

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« Reply #307 on: October 12, 2005, 11:14:42 AM »
o/t fyi post:

Here's a link to an interactive flash (Soviet Point of View) of the Great Patriot War:

GPW

On the flash on the right there's is button to 'start animation'.
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Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #308 on: October 12, 2005, 11:20:53 AM »
So nice that you can generalize Crumpp but I have to get specific.
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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #309 on: October 12, 2005, 02:56:55 PM »
Quote
So nice that you can generalize Crumpp but I have to get specific.


What are you talking about?

All the best,

Crumpp
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #310 on: October 12, 2005, 06:19:14 PM »
Hey Kuffie!
"From what I have seen, the Mk VIII falls short of these speed and climb data you claim for it, esp. trop ones. It has the exactsame engine as the MkIX, and is heavier... why would it climb faster, or even as fast ? All data I have seen show almost the same speed as the IXs, ie. 400ish top speed. THe FW 190A-5 from what I have seen was somewhat faster at altitudee, quite faster at low alts, and of course climbed quite a bit worser (being a much heavier plane with smaller wings), ie. 3800-4000, whereas IXs climbed 4650, and the VIIIs were probably worser, being 300lbs heavier.."
I have just the data from testing as well as some info from the far east.
(5000 fpm and 420 mph)
It got "cleaned up" some bit as well as many "other improvements" (J.Quill),- what exactly he refers to I am not sure about. Internal bullet proof glass on the windscreen and a retractable tailwheel come to my mind there. (I know about the tailwheel but need data on the other)
As for the Engine, it would be the Merlin 66 or 70, - our AH Merlin being the early 61.
The 190 should be faster at lower alt, and slower at high alt, - the Merlin 66 and 70 peaking out rather high. The 190 will be better downhill, - but alas, - downhill is an attempt to disengage. Running.
Uphill will count as somewhat more important IMHO.
So. - I'm off to bed.
Cheers.
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #311 on: October 12, 2005, 06:59:37 PM »
Quote
The 190 will be better downhill, - but alas, - downhill is an attempt to disengage. Running.


Your weight reduces drag in a dive:

Quote
In the case of the dive condition, the weight component along the flight path helps the thrust by reducing the drag component for constant velocity.


http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Theories_of_Flight/performance/TH24.htm

Better dive accelleration is extremely useful in a real fight.  Not only can you disengage at will but you can gain energy by short dives/zooms.

For the Spitfire this is compounded by it's greater form drag when compared to the FW190 so that even a very shallow dive would give advantage to the 190.  By converting the gained speed to altitude (W/D), the FW190 is back on top.

That is exactly how FW190 pilots got in close and fought in the verticle against Spitfires.

They could zoom above and dive down.  Using the high speed manuverability and roll rate, turn with a spit for few seconds if necessary.  If they did not get solution, roll out before bleeding too much E, shallow dive of a few degrees so that weight gives thrust a little boost, and zoom back up top.  Repeat as often as needed.

So while the Spitfire's talent lay in its turning ability, the FW190's was the verticle.

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: October 12, 2005, 07:28:36 PM by Crumpp »
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Offline Charge

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« Reply #312 on: October 13, 2005, 03:53:03 AM »
"The 190 will be better downhill, - but alas, - downhill is an attempt to disengage. Running."

Heh. Was that your point? A Coward's plane?


:rofl

-C+

edit: "So while the Spitfire's talent lay in its turning ability, the FW190's was the verticle."

I think the fighting style Crumpp described has even anecdotal evidence. A british ace fought a bunch of FWs and got the attacking leader smoking after a brief snapshot. But AFAIK that was exactly how the fight went on. The FW didn't try to turn and the Spit didn't try to zoom climb. Don't remember who it was, though.

There is also anecdotal evidence of an FW gaining on a Spit in a high speed turn. Don't remember that dude either but he got away from FWs eventually.

I can dig them up if you insist.

;)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2005, 04:03:40 AM by Charge »
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #313 on: October 13, 2005, 04:50:35 AM »
Ahh, always wanted to ask Crumpp about this.
From reading countless autobiographies, I have the feeling that the 190 turned quite well at high speed. I have seen some reports about 190's hanging with a Spit for more than a circle, but they would suffer if they kept it too long. So,in a really high G, high speed turn, the 190 would perhaps shine?

Anyway, about the vertical and the zoom, dogfights tended to slow down if both opponents stayed. Eventually the shear ROC will count more than zoom.
Then there are all these Spits. Not all the same. The XII drivers under Harris command would chase the 190's downhill and keep locked to them.
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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« Reply #314 on: October 13, 2005, 05:26:19 AM »
Ahh, Baron this time. A new nick? Getting banned?
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)
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