Author Topic: Super vrs Uber (Read 19248 times)

Angus · « **Reply #315 on:** October 13, 2005, 05:39:50 AM »

Lol, well, I saved the Dieppe one.

Crumpp · « **Reply #316 on:** October 13, 2005, 07:05:34 AM »

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Ahh, always wanted to ask Crumpp about this.

Yes. Doing some simple calculations will confirm this.

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Anyway, about the vertical and the zoom, dogfights tended to slow down if both opponents stayed. Eventually the shear ROC will count more than zoom.

Yes they tended to slow down and get lower. At tree top level the FW190 gives it's best performance so while the Spit if losing advantage the lower the fight goes, the 190 gains.

Being faster in level speed on the deck allows the FW190 to keep its energy advantage. Remember it accelerates better too at altitudes the FW190 is faster.

So I think having the fight get low and slow works against the Spitfire.

I have quite a few anecdotes of FW190 Spitfire fights. Yes, in many of them the FW190's make several level turns with the Spitfire before either shooting it down or breaking out of circle to zoom. I did not even bring it up because people in this forum would break out into a cold sweat if they thought the historical truth was that these planes were very competitive. That pilot quality and weight of numbers was the deciding factor in the air war over Europe.

My whole purpose in quoting Sholto Douglas was too show that sometimes too much weight is put on these type of comments. Men at war who were forced to have a grudging respect for the enemy’s equipment made them.

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After the trials ended and the results were analyzed, the following letter was written by Air Chief Marshal Sir William Sholto Douglas to the Under Secretary of State for Air, Lord Sherwood.

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2. I seem to detect a spirit of complacency in the Ministry of Aircraft Production. This is borne out by the speeches of the Minister of Production and the Minister of Aircraft Production in the debate in the House of Commons on Tuesday, 14 July. They appear to find it difficult to believe that we have really lost our lead in fighter performance. There is however no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the fw J 90 is the best all-round fighter in the world today [author's italics). It is no answer to say that the position will be reversed when the Spitfire IX comes into general use. In the first place I have only fourteen Spitfire IXs, whereas the enemy has between two and three hundred Fw 190s. In several respects the Fw 190 is superior to the Spitfire IX, e.g. in climb and acceleration at certain critical altitudes and in negative G carburation. The most alarming aspect of the position however is that, whereas the Spitfire with Merlin engine is almost at the end of its possible development, the Fw 190 is only in the early stages of its development. Reports are already to hand of more horsepower being put into the engine of the Fw 190, and there is no doubt that with its greater engine capacity, it can in time easily outstrip the Merlin Spitfire in performance. This in fact is likely to have happened by next spring.

http://www.shockwaveproductions.com/store/fw190/letter_from_the_chief.htm

After all it suits the agenda to quote Galland about the Spitfire, right?

People will point to Galland’s comments, forgetting that Mölders disagreed. The reality is there is so little to choose between the Spitfire and the 109 it is silly to argue.

Or they will take the comments about the P51 over Berlin and try to make it comment on performance of the P51! It was simply that fact that now enemy fighters can fly the distance. We are talking about an enemy that had not just a few of them, but overwhelming numbers of fighters.

No, the FW190 was a good fighter with design purpose strengths but so wasn't the Spitfire, 109, and P51. All of them were improved throughout the war.

All the best,

Crumpp

Angus · « **Reply #317 on:** October 13, 2005, 07:42:15 AM »

Well, IMHO, the 190 was the star of 1941-42. But the Allies gained on it again.
Crumpp, do you have Quill's book? If you don't, I'll scan some part for you and send by email.
There is a very interesting chapter about the 190, - the shock it gave and some plans to find out more about it.
BTW Quill also flew Fabers 190, but in this book there is not much of his opinion about it. BTW he also flew a 109.
From Tony Jonsson's book there is also some good stuff, - 190 vs P51. In fact, many items about engagements with the 190. I'll peel out some for you if you like, but my book is in Germany and won't be back before some 2 weeks (a friend is reading it)
Anyway, bear in mind that those first Mk IX Spitfires were Merlin 61 Spits, optimized for high altitude. Now basically, the engineering task of calibrating an aircraft to be supergood at very high altitude is more complicated than having it working well at low altitude. But the fight had to be where it was!
The 190 Worked brilliantly at medium to low altitude, - so if you pick a fight with a Spit IX (m.61) the road goes down. This was countered with the CCC's, - optimized Spitties for low alt, and the boosted up and clipped LF's were quite up to the task at low alt, - say alone the XII's.
Enter the Mustang. Must have been a nightmare for the 190, and certainly is for me when I fly a 190 in AH. I get jumped by a P51 (or a P47) and I am dead.....

Crumpp · « **Reply #318 on:** October 13, 2005, 07:51:34 AM »

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Must have been a nightmare for the 190, and certainly is for me when I fly a 190 in AH. I get jumped by a P51 (or a P47) and I am dead.....

Angus,

AH is very very far from reality.

I think your reading quite a few opinions and taking them to be absolute fact. Do the math.

The 190 equipped Jagdwaffe did not even notice the introduction of the Spitfire Mk IX or any Merlin spit for that matter. A Spitfire simply remained a Spitfire.

The "NEW" Spitifires that recieved notice were the Mk IVX's.

All the best,

Crumpp

Angus · « **Reply #319 on:** October 13, 2005, 08:22:11 AM »

Hihi, I tend to disagree, - when I go flying in a little aircraft, I am amazed of how similar it is!!!!
Now, generally the LW didn't notice much of a difference between the Spitfires, - the IX and V were almost identical to look at.
As for the P51 vs 190 there is more about than AH of course. The thing that was the nightmare for the 190 was that it could no longer escape downhill nor outturn, not go win by the vertical, just outroll. I have looked at some guncams where P51's were totally shredding 190's that tried to run. RL stuff, not AH.

Charge · « **Reply #320 on:** October 13, 2005, 08:26:17 AM »

"whereas the Spitfire with Merlin engine is almost at the end of its possible development, the Fw 190 is only in the early stages of its development."

Hmm, Sholto makes a strange assumption there. The Spit got many variations of Merlins after model V and Griffons further expanded its field usability. Is he referring that Merlin did not possess any other options for further development than optimizations for different altitudes?
After those variations the Griffon was quite quickly introduced.

-C+

Edit: "I have looked at some guncams where P51's were totally shredding 190's that tried to run. RL stuff, not AH."

And I have seen guncams of a 190 easily turning inside a P47 and even pulling lead. That doesn't tell much of the situation, anyway. And I dont make hollow assumptions of the relative turn performance of these a/c.

But if you want to make assumption based on those guncams, then please do. They do not increase your credibility, quite contrary, Angus.

Angus · « **Reply #321 on:** October 13, 2005, 08:41:18 AM »

Ok, Ok so they were probably fake.
In low level flight P51 can't catch a 190A. And anecdoted be it LW or Allied claiming that must be false then.

Angus · « **Reply #322 on:** October 13, 2005, 09:05:55 AM »

Must be Baron, and that's why you get banned all the time and I not.

To give you a little more sight into my guncam quote, it is not out of thin air.
I was researching a clash between P51C's and 190's occuring in 1944.
Well actually Clashes.
The 51's chased the 190's uphill in one engagement and caught them.
The 51's caught the 190's downhill (can't remember if it was the same engagement), caught up with them and shot some down.
I looked it up in the PRO and as well I got to browse through god-knows-how-many guncam shots from reel at the film archive of the IWM.
So, I had been peeking into autobiography, then ops books, claims from another sorts and then finally guncam, as well as speaking to one of the pilots involved. So turned out that the anecdotes were in very good harmony with the claims, and the claims were in good harmony with the proof, and the pilot's performance claim was quite well viewable on film.

So, I have brought that, - I can give you the combat anecdote on the thread if you like as well as some names and such. N.P.

Angus · « **Reply #323 on:** October 13, 2005, 11:16:05 AM »

I have shown logics, you just don't get them.
I have showed and offered data and put in quotes, while you have just been belching from your own belly.
I have debated your input, and seen claims and items slowly disappearing from the discussion.
Banning has to do with personal attacks basically - which are usually appearing out of frustration, - which in your case I guess are probably due to the fact that you cannot support your big mouthed statements.
So, what is your next name going to be?

MiloMorai · « **Reply #324 on:** October 13, 2005, 11:38:27 AM »

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Originally posted by Angus
So, what is your next name going to be?

He should use the one he uses on other boards instead of hiding behind the ones he does here.

Angus · « **Reply #325 on:** October 13, 2005, 12:40:39 PM »

Lol he got edited again

Crumpp · « **Reply #326 on:** October 13, 2005, 01:42:41 PM »

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The thing that was the nightmare for the 190 was that it could no longer escape downhill nor outturn, not go win by the vertical, just outroll. I have looked at some guncams where P51's were totally shredding 190's that tried to run. RL stuff, not AH.

Really? You should tell that to Oscar, Heinz, or Kurt. The impression I get is the 20 Mustangs was a nightmare, not the one.

Pick up a copy of:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1855324474/ref=sib_dp_pt/103-5865364-1525459#reader-link

You just might be surprised at just what the P51 Aces have to say about fighting the FW190.

All the best,

Crumpp

Angus · « **Reply #327 on:** October 13, 2005, 07:09:59 PM »

Is it a Good read?
It will be some 3 weeks until I have my book ready for quoting (it's on the travel), but if it helps, those were P51C's, they would engage in a scruffle deep inside enemy territory even 1 vs 4 or 5 (!!!!!), and usually be able to get away. Yes, - they could disengage!
Those were no newbies however, and probably had much more experience behind them than the normal LW pilot at the time. The core of the squad I was looking into already had 1 ToD behind them.
The pilot's comment from the P51 pilots I have picked up so far basically go like "unlike when dealing with the Spitfire, the 190's could not run away any more"."
So, once it was a dogfight, - a 190A series would not disengage and outrun a Mustang. Nor a Spit XII for that sake.

Crumpp · « **Reply #328 on:** October 13, 2005, 08:14:23 PM »

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So, once it was a dogfight, - a 190A series would not disengage and outrun a Mustang. Nor a Spit XII for that sake.

Depends on what time period and which FW190.

All the best,

Crumpp

Angus · « **Reply #329 on:** October 14, 2005, 09:04:15 AM »

Hehe
"Depends on what time period and which FW190."
A series. Also depends a little on alt and as well what kind of boosted P51 for instance.....I know.
But the speed difference is marginal down medium to low, either way.