Super vrs Uber

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Karnak

"froline" is almost certainly a misspelling of "frauline", the German word for a young, or unmarried woman.

And all this time I was thinking it was a German chick with an Afro.


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Debonair
Except the C-47, which was in combat into the 1970s. So it is settled, C-47 best combat plane of WWII.

IIRC, so did the P-38 in some of the Central and South American countries.



ack-ack

[OttoJ]

Originally posted by Bronk
Just seems funny when the f4u was in actual combat. When the spanish had some 109 to get rid of. I guess the hondurans and the el salvadorans didnt want an inferior plane.


Bronk

I said the 109 was still in production when the F4Us and P51s were being scrapped (in US/UK service). That some 3rd world countries still flew them is irrelevant. Several 3rd world countries still fly the MiG-15/17, that doesn't mean the F-86/100 was outdated.

[Debonair]

I've never read about that anywhere.
P-51 & F4U I've heard of in lesser airforces in that era, but not the Lightning.  Would greatly appreciate a link to that info if you have one.  
I think A-26s may have been active for quite some time also, it was in Vietnam also, wasn't it?.  I know there is at least one A-26 is still flying around converted to a private plane (sort of an early bizjet conversion was done to some A-26s in the 50s or 60s.  It was apparently considered a great plane for cocaine smuggling also, another job the 109 never did)

[OttoJ]

Originally posted by straffo
You have to define this precisely.
Personally I don't think the 109 was sucessful at all,didn't the German lost the war ?

You are attributing the failure of the Luftwaffe to the machines they flew. That's a fallacy. The Americans lost the Vietnam War, however the F-4 Phantom II was an immensely successful fighter. The Americans didn't lose the war because their equipment was inferior. Nor did the Germans.





As a final input in this entertaining, but stupid argument; by June 1944 all piston-engined fighters were sorely outdated.

[straffo]

Originally posted by OttoJ
You are attributing the failure of the Luftwaffe to the machines they flew. That's a fallacy.

yep ,I know

It's a fallacy to attribute the succes of some pilots to their plane (even if it's a non negligible factor)

Instead I could had posted a liste like that :

Gunther Hartmann  KIA 1st mission jan45
Wilhlem  Barkhorn KIA 1st mission jan45
Erich Rall KIA 1st mission jan45
Otto Kittel KIA 1st mission jan45
Heinz  Nowotny KIA 1st mission jan45
GerhardBatz KIA 1st mission jan45
Erich Rudorffer KIA 1st mission jan45
Walter Bar KIA 1st mission jan45

It would have been a fallacy also

[OttoJ]

Originally posted by humble
It was not a Mustang, but to translate that defect into "outdated in 1934" is rather silly, especially as the Luftwaffe didn't need a Mustang.

I'd disagree completely, every nation "needed" a mustang. By that I mean a flexible platform that combined range, performance and multimission capability. Had the germans possessed a plane with any similiar capability in 1942 (when the mustang originally entered service) or a plane similiar to the -1 hog which 1st flew May 29, 1940 and entered service in June 1942 the war would have proceeded completely differently. The lack of a "strike fighter" crippled the luftwaffe thru out the conflict. On the otherside the US had 4 distinct generations of such aircraft on the USAAF side alone (the P-39, P38, P-47 and P-51). All of them combined a reasonable air to air capability along with significant range and ground attack capability. The germans lack of vision in this regard is probably the single greatest reason they lost the war.

Complete humbug. The P-51 was a purpose designed and dedicated escort fighter. Its armament and climb rate made it a poor interceptor, and the placement of its radiator and fuel tanks made it unsuited for ground attack. In the fighter-bomber role the Fw190G series was eminently more effective with some specialized versions even having longer range than the P-51.

[OttoJ]

Originally posted by straffo
yep ,I know

It's a fallacy to attribute the succes of some pilots to their plane (even if it's a non negligible factor)

Instead I could had posted a liste like that :

Gunther Hartmann  KIA 1st mission jan45
Wilhlem  Barkhorn KIA 1st mission jan45
Erich Rall KIA 1st mission jan45
Otto Kittel KIA 1st mission jan45
Heinz  Nowotny KIA 1st mission jan45
GerhardBatz KIA 1st mission jan45
Erich Rudorffer KIA 1st mission jan45
Walter Bar KIA 1st mission jan45

It would have been a fallacy also [/B]

My list was BIGGER!

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Karnak
When the comparisons come up then there are "issues" and I have been called a Nazi by him on multiple occasions for not bowing to the absolute mastery of the Bf109.  Most recently he refered to Goebbels as my master.

Why are you shy mentioning that it was YOU who started argueing this way, calling me a NAZI just for expressing a technical opinion?

Truth is that after you run out of arguements and you couldn`t bear that you were not right, you escaped into a sorry lame-prettythang namecalling about who is being nazi for liking Luftwaffe aircraft. Nonone m8, I just return the favour to you. And now you are being a hypocrite and complaining to people about a custum YOU started, but it came back to you. How pathethic, really.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by F4UDOA
Karnak,

The 109 out turning an F4U would be an interesting challenge. A 109F or early probably could, maybe even a G2, I would have to see the wing loading. But I am pretty sure that the later models G6 and up would have a pretty hard time doing that even without the F4U using it's combat flaps.

[/B]

109s had combat flaps as well now you mention, so...?

As for the lineage, the F4 weighted 2900 kg, the G-2 3050 kg (+150kg), the G-6 3150kg (+100kg). Point is, the whole weigh diffo is a mere 500 lbs between the F4 and G-6, with the latter having the better engine.So I don`t see why the G-6 would be so poor. Seeing the fact that you didn`t get into 109G performance a lot (it varied a LOT), I don`t know how you can make valid statements on relative performance. I`d say the 109G-6 basic variant and the contemporary F4U are quite close in everything. As for G-6 performance, it varied a lot, there were many versions, different engines and boosts. It all depends the timeframe.

And as HoHun said, wingloading is grossly misleading since there are other factors such as lift coefficient (the slats on the 109 greatly add to this in turns), and powerloading and drag. I do not really had look up it, but I`d safely bet that drag, powerloading favours the 109, so it`s a tough nut.

[EdXCal]

Awhile back OttoJ posted all those 109 aces from WW2, well if you notice most of the fighting from Germany was with Russia, Russia lost over 7000 aircraft in the first few months of the war!!! Germans were ripping the VERY outdated and under trained early Russian airforce apart.
So no wonder you had so many 109 aces, it was there main fighter aircraft that flew through the whole war and on every german front! And when you send it up against (at the time) one of the worst though largest airforces in the world, you get: alots of high scoring aces!
No doubt the 109 was a good plane through out the war, good training in the pilots, good aircraft tactics and good planes, but near the end of the war the 109 was a rocket sled. It was way to heavy and over developed, it went from being a nimble small fighter to bring a very over weight though fast interceptor. They just tried doing to many thing with that plane and it didn't end up to well.

Edward

[Bronk]

Originally posted by EdXCal
Awhile back OttoJ posted all those 109 aces from WW2, well if you notice most of the fighting from Germany was with Russia, Russia lost over 7000 aircraft in the first few months of the war!!! Germans were ripping the VERY outdated and under trained early Russian airforce apart.
So no wonder you had so many 109 aces, it was there main fighter aircraft that flew through the whole war and on every german front! And when you send it up against (at the time) one of the worst though largest airforces in the world, you get: alots of high scoring aces!
No doubt the 109 was a good plane through out the war, good training in the pilots, good aircraft tactics and good planes, but near the end of the war the 109 was a rocket sled. It was way to heavy and over developed, it went from being a nimble small fighter to bring a very over weight though fast interceptor. They just tried doing to many thing with that plane and it didn't end up to well.

Edward

DING,DING,DING,
Give that man a cigar.




Bronk

[OttoJ]

The vast majority of the Red Airforce was destroyed on the ground, and the Luftwaffe did not count those as kills. In our western culture both movies and history books have focused more on the western front of the air war. The biggest air war was fought in the east however, so it is natural that the Russian Front aces had more kills. Russian pilots also accumulated more kills than their western counterparts and the leading allied ace of WWII is a Russian. After all the real war was fought in the east.


Just for clarification here's a list of the 50+ kills Luftwaffe aces of the western front. First number is rank, second number (immediately behind the pilot's name) is kills over western/southern Europe and Africa, third number is kills over the eastern front, the fourth and final number is the kill total for all fronts.


1
 Hptm. Hans-Joachim "Jochen" Marseille 158
 0
 158
 
2
 Obstlt. Heinz "Pritzel" Bär 125
 96
 221
 
3
 Obstlt. Kurt Bühligen 112
 0
 112
 
4
 GenLt. Adolf "Dolfo" Galland 104
 0
 104
 
5
 Maj. Joachim Müncheberg 102
 33
 135
 
6
 Maj. Werner Schroer 102
 12
 114
 
7
 Obstlt. Egon Mayer 102
 0
 102
 
8
 Obst. Josef "Pips" Priller 101
 0
 101
 
9
 Obst. Gustav Rödel 96 (97)
 2 (1)
 98
 
10
 Hptm. Josef "Sepp" Wurmheller 93
 9
 102
 
11
 Maj. Siegfried "Wurm" Schnell 90
 3
 93
 
12
 Maj. Erich Rudorffer 86
 138
 224
 
13
 Obst. Walter Oesau 73
 44
 117
 
14
 Hptm. Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert 71
 103
 174
 
15
 Hptm. Siegfried Lemke 70~
 1 ?
 70~
 
16
 Oblt. Adolf "Addi" Glunz 69
 3
 72
 
17
 Maj. Werner "Vati" Mölders 68
 33
 101
 
18
 Maj. Georg-Peter Eder 68
 10
 78
 
19
 Maj. Hans "Assi" Hahn 66
 42
 108
 
20
 Maj. Anton "Toni" Hackl 61
 131
 192
 
21
 Maj. Gerhard Homuth 61
 2
 63
 
22
 Oblt. Herbert Rollwage  60+
 11
 85~
 
23
 Maj. Klaus Mietusch 60
 15
 75
 
24
 Maj. Gerhard Michalski 59
 14
 73
 
25
 Lt. Hans-Arnold "Fiffi" Stahlschmidt 59
 0
 59
 
26
 Obst. Herbert Ihlefeld 56
 67
 123
 
27
 Oblt. Günther Seeger 56
 0
 56
 
28
 Maj. Helmut Wick 56
 0
 56
 
29
 Oblt. Karl-Heinz Bendert 55
 0
 55
 
30
 Maj. Wilhelm-Ferdinand "Wutz" Galland 54 (55)
 0
 54 (55)
 
31
 Maj. Friedrich-Karl "Tutti" Müller 53
 87
 140
 
32
 Hptm. Franz "Nawratil" Schiess 53
 14
 67
 
33
 Maj. Rolf-Günther Hermichen 53
 11
 64
 
34
 Maj. Julius Meimberg 53
 0
 53
 
35
 Oblt. Willi Kientsch 52
 0
 52
 
36
 Oblt. Rudolf "Rudi" Pflanz 52
 0
 52
 
37
 Ofw. Heinrich Bartels 50
 49
 99

[OttoJ]

Her we have the Spitfire killers. First number (immediately behind the pilot's name) is Spit kills, second number is kill total.


Obst. Josef "Pips" Priller 68
 101
 JG 51, JG 26
Hptm. Josef "Sepp" Wurmheller   56+
 102
 JG 53, JG 2
Maj. Hans "Assi" Hahn   53  
 108
 JG 2, JG 54
Obstlt. Egon Mayer 51
 102
 JG 2
Genlt. Adolf "Dolfo" Galland 50
 104
 JG 27, JG 26, G.d.J, JV 44
Maj. Siegfried Schnell   49+
 93
 JG 2, JG 54
Obstlt. Kurt "Bu-mann" Bühligen   47+
 112
 JG 2
Maj. Joachim Müncheberg 46
 135
 JG 26, JG 51, JG 77
Oblt. Rudolf "Rudi" Pflanz 45
 52
 JG 2
Maj. Erich Rudorffer   42
 224
 JG 2, JG 54, JG 7
Obst. Walter "Gulle" Oesau   38+
 127
 JG 51, JG 3, JG 2, JG 1
Maj. Wilhelm-Ferdinand "Wutz" Galland 37
 54
 JG 26
Maj. Siegfried Freytag   34  
 102
 JG 77
Oblt. Adolf Glunz 34
 72
 JG 52, JG 26, JG 7
Hptm. Johann Schmid 34
 45
 JG 2, JG 26
Obstlt. Johannes Seifert 32
 57
 JG 26
Maj. Erich Leie 30
 118
 JG 2, JG 51, JG 77
Obstlt. Gerhard Michalski 29
 73
 JG 53, JG z.b.v., JG 11, JG 4
Obstlt. Heinz "Pritzel" Bär   28  
 221
 JG 51, JG 77, JG 1, JG 3, EJG 2, JV 44
Maj. Karl Borris 28
 43
 JG 26
Hptm. Kurt Ebersberger 27
 30
 JG 26
Obst. Herbert Ihlefeld 26
 132
 LG 2, JG 77, JG 51, JG 52, JGr.25, JG 11,JG 1
Obstlt. Werner "Vati" Mölders 25
 115
 JG 53, JG 51
Hptm. Siegfried Lemke 25
 70~
 JG 2
Maj. Helmut Wick 24
 56
 JG 2
Hptm. Hermann-Friedrich "Jupp" Joppien 23
 70
 JG 51
Oblt. Herbert Rollwage 22
 71+
 JG 53, JG 106
Hptm. Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert 21
 174
 JG 77, JG 27
Hptm. Hans-Joachim "Jochen" Marseille 20
 158
 LG 2, JG 27, JG 7
Hptm. Heinz-Edgar Berres 20
 52
 LG 2, JG 77
FjOfw. Emil Babenz 20
 24
 JG 26, JG 53
Maj. Klaus Mietusch 19
 75
 JG 26
Hptm. Franz "Nawratil" Schiess 18
 67
 JG 53
Hptm. Bruno Stolle 18
 35
 LG 1, JG 51, JG 2, JG 11, EKdo Ta 152
Hptm. Friedrich Geisshardt 17
 102
 LG 2, JG 77, JG 26
Hptm. Wolfgang Tonne 16
 122
 JG 53
Oblt. Karl "Charly" Willius 16
 50
 JG 51, JG 26
Oblt. Erich Schmidt 15
 47
 JG 53
Lt. Jakob Augustin 14
 15
 JG 2
Hptm. Robert "Bazzi" Weiss 12
 121
 JG 26, JG 54
Maj. Herbert Huppertz 12
 78
 JG 51, JG 1, JG 5, JG 2
Oblt. Walter Brandt 12
 43
 LG 2, JG 77, JG 3
Maj. Karl-Heinz Greisert 11
 34
 JG 2, JG 3

[OttoJ]

P-47 killers.


Oblt. Wilhelm Hofmann 13
 44
 JG 26
Maj. Theodor Weissenberger 13
 208
 JG 5, JG 7
Obstlt. Egon Mayer 12
 102
 JG 2
Maj. Julius "Jule" Meimberg 12
 53
 JG 2, JG 53
Obstlt. Heinz-Edgar "Pritzel" Bär 10
 221
 JG 51, JG 77, JG 1, JG 3, EJG 2, JV 44
Maj. Georg-Peter Eder 10
 78
 JG 51, JG 2, JG 1, JG 26, Kdo Nowotny, JG 7
Obstlt. Kurt "Bu-mann" Bühligen 9+
 112
 JG 2
Ofw. Heinrich Bartels 9
 99
 EJG 26, JG 1, JG 5, JG 27
Oblt. Adolf "Addi" Glunz 9
 71
 JG 52, JG 26, EJG 2, JG 7
Oblt. Waldemar-H. "Waldi" Radener 9
 36
 JG 26, JG 300
Hptm. Siegfried Lemke 8+
 70~
 JG 2
Lt. Hans Prager 8+
 21
 JG 26, JG 54
Hptm. Alfred "Martello" Hammer 8
 26
 JG 53
Hptm. Walter “Graf Punski” Krupinski 7
 197
 JG 52, JG 11, JG 26, JV 44
Maj. Jürgen Harder 7
 64
 JG 53, JG 11
Lt. Heinz Kemethmüller 7
 89
 JG 3, JG 26
Maj. Wilhelm Steinmann 7
 44
 JG 27, JG 4, EJG 2, JV 44
Lt. Waldemar Söffing 7
 34
 JG 26
Oblt. Herbert Rollwage 6+
  85~
 JG 53, JG 106
Lt. Gerd Wiegand 6+
 23
 JG 26
Maj. Anton Hackl 6
 192
 JG 77, JG 11, JG 76, JG 26, JG 300
Hptm. Emil "Bully" Lang 6
 173
 JG 54, JG 26
Maj. Klaus Mietusch 6
 75
 JG 26
Hptm. Lutz-Wilhelm Burkhardt 6
 69
 JG 77, JGr. Süd, JG 1, EJG 2
Lt. Paul Becker 5
 21
 JG 27
Maj. Wilhelm-Ferdinand "Wutz" Galland 5
 54
 JG 26
Lt. Wilhelm Mayer 5+
 27
 JG 26
Hptm. Otto Meyer 5
 21
 JG 26, JG 27
Maj. Hermann Staiger 5
 63
 JG 20, JG 51, JG 26, JG 1, JG 7
Oblt. Heinz-Gerhard Vogt 5
 48
 JG 26
Hptm. Franz "Nawratil" Schiess 18
 67
 JG 53
Hptm. Bruno Stolle 18
 35
 LG 1, JG 51, JG 2, JG 11, EKdo Ta 152
Hptm. Friedrich Geisshardt 17
 102
 LG 2, JG 77, JG 26
Hptm. Wolfgang Tonne 16
 122
 JG 53
Oblt. Karl "Charly" Willius 16
 50
 JG 51, JG 26
Oblt. Erich Schmidt 15
 47
 JG 53
Lt. Jakob Augustin 14
 15
 JG 2
Hptm. Robert "Bazzi" Weiss 12
 121
 JG 26, JG 54
Maj. Herbert Huppertz 12
 78
 JG 51, JG 1, JG 5, JG 2
Oblt. Walter Brandt 12
 43
 LG 2, JG 77, JG 3
Maj. Karl-Heinz Greisert 11
 34
 JG 2, JG 3