Fellow Americans what do you think.....

[Fatty]

 

Name one that has the same capability as china RIGHT NOW (without massive investment by foreign/US industry) to do that.

While not the bulk of China, certainly capable of supplying electronics are Korea and (wouldn't the Chinese love this...) Taiwan.

As to the massive investment, a majority of that investment is due simply to the market supply of the product.  IE the dramatic increase in demand from the markets of Korea and Taiwan would in itself provide a massive investment boom to those areas.  I don't advise hard sanctions on China mind you (reserving the right to change my mind pending the outcome of this situation) because it's mutually benificial, but we would certainly survive a halt of trade with China well enough, with the side effect of strengthening China's neighbors at their expense.


[This message has been edited by Fatty (edited 04-03-2001).]

[texace]

What I don't understand is how they say that the EP-3 "turned suddenly" when the EP-3 can't turn very fast at all. The pilot would have needed to be right up close to the EP-3 for that. The plane can't turned that fast.

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semperfi

Everything dead in 30 minutes or less or the next one's free.
-Marines

[jihad]

 Udie, do that and you will NEVER see the crew again, I assure you.
Military force isn't going to be the answer to this one.

1. Use force before you get the crew back and they will either kill them or lock them away somewhere and TELL you that they were "killed in your own attack".

2. Use force after you get the crew back and you are over-reacting. If all they have is the inanimate plane, you can't justify (in the court of world opinion) attacking a sovereign nation.

I'm suprised the Navy Tactical Doctrine for an aircraft of this sophistication and importance allowed them to land in China.

I would have thought the standing orders would have been to ditch in deep water, like tac doctrine was in the "old days".

Face it. They have already won this one. They will release the crew when ready and I doubt we'll ever get the plane back before they have thoroughly examined it...if at all.

However, let this be a guideline for our dealing with them from this day forward.

I'd end "most favored nation" trading status with them immediately.

I'd slowly begin building tarriff barriers against importing their goods and slowly begin implementing supplements and tax breakss for US businesses that move out of China.

I'd also provide incentives for our businesses to build trade with other, more responsible nations.

I would implement short-term compensation for any US workers that were adversely affected by this program.

The Chinese are simply unreliable partners, in world peace or trade interests. The sooner we admit it and move on the better.

Let them live in their workers paradise without the US market to support it.

I'll have to second Toads response, firing cruise missles would be stupid IMO.

I just hope the aircraft had some devices aboard to destroy the more sensitive equipment - and the crew engaged them when they landed the plane.

[Daff]

"Look how WELL they live in Cuba! "

And the US embargo got absolutly nothing to do with that?.

Daff

[Dowding]

Let's have a war!!! Let's kick some f****** ass!!

It must be all but, ooh, 50 years from the last one. It's about bloody time. I really want to see mushroom clouds over Sheffield, because if it kicked off, there is no way on Earth that Western Europe would come through it unscathed. Hey and if goes critical conventionally, I can't wait for my draft papers. That would be so cool!

Seriously, diplomacy is the name of the game now. Not chest-beating or impotent posturing. Be grateful that you have actually heard of this incident; during the Cold War this kind of thing happened regularly over the years, and was not released to the media. I was reading how US servicemen lost their lives in 'secret' encounters between C-130 reconaissance planes and Soviet fighters.

Be careful, Mr. Bush, the whole world is watching.

Daff - there's no point arguing with Americans over the embargo with Cuba. Just contribute to the British charities who regularly fly aid to the hospitals there - I hear that the embargo will be gone within ten years.

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-03-2001).]

[Toad]

Tac,

Do a little reading on the half-life of the radioactive particles left behind after a nuke goes off.

While my knowledge is now 20 years old, at one time I had a pretty intimate knowledge of how the US planned to wage a limited or all out nuclear war, if necessary. I'm also pretty aware of the radiation effects predicted.

Guess what? If we survived, we weren't going to be able to recover the airplanes to the US even though we figured we would still have had places to land.

Some Chinese might survive...for a while... but given an "all out" nuke exchange with the US (which I don't propose, just examining your thoughts)the whole place would be too radioactive to support human life for a long, long time. I hope they have this part figured out. (Not to mention a whole lot of other places that have the bad fortune to be nearby.)

Also, as far as is known right now, they may have the capability to hit the West Coast of the US (at present) with something like 10 weapons. A disaster to be sure. The ensuing retaliation, however, would be much more severe for them. (We still maintain an "no first use" posture AFAIK.)

In ten years or less, as I said, this will not necessarily be the case, IMO.

Swimming infantry? I wasn't referring to Taiwan. I was referring to the US. I KNOW we're not going to start a land war in China. I doubt they'd consider starting one here.

Taiwan? That question will have to be addressed sooner or later. I'll say this about it: I doubt the US would go to all out war to "save" Taiwan. My sons won't. Second, no one, not even the US can "make people free". They have to make themselves "free".

Cuba will come around..after Castro checks out. Right or wrong, no US administration is going to really help them poor bastiges until Fidel is in another astral plane.

You think Cuba has it better than China right now?

As far as trade with China, look in these threads and tell me where I said "Right Now."

You{/b], sir, are making that unwarranted assumption.

I, unlike some others in my government,   do take the "Chinese view."

These are people we should choose not to deal with. It may take 10 year or 20 years to cut our trade to next to nothing with them. Maybe longer; that's not a factor, tho.

Just 15 short years ago (for me; 15 years is probably a big deal to you, grasshopper   ) here were the trade numbers:

TOTAL (Millions)

US Exports 3,855.70
US Imports 3,861.70
Deficit   -6.00  

I'm merely suggesting we start heading back that way.

As some famous guy once said "The longest journey begins with a single step."

Time to just start stepping away from China as a trade partner. This incident is just more proof that they are unstable partners in the pursuit world peace.

So, time to slowly encourage trade with other, more responsible, more rational nations. You do this with tax breaks, subsidies, MFN trade status (and the denial of same   ) and the other levers, pulleys and fulcrums of international trade.

...and the time to start is NOW.

[Raubvogel]

Well, I had alot to say, but Toad's pretty much covered it  

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Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps

[Toad]

Animal: "I'm not clear if its an act of war from the chinese, the plane being a spy plane"

Guys, I have been there, done this, in the exact same spot 21 years ago. I've read this type of comment way to much in the last 2 days..so excuse me for jumping in one more time but it bugs the cr*p outta me!  

I know something about Recon...at least as it WAS and I know most of the big stuff hasn't changed.

The plan being a Recon plane has NOTHING to do with this, either way. It is a perfectly legal, accepted practice by all major powers to use aircraft, ships, submarines, whatever, in International Waters or Airspace to conduct surveillance of an electronic or optical nature.

The situation would be the same if this was a cargo plane, a tanker, a bomber or a fighter. It's a mid-air resulting in an aircraft in distress. That's it. That's all. Any way, that's what it SHOULD be. Who caused the mid-air is actually immaterial with regards to the aircraft in distress.

The key is "international airspace."

DB603: I really wish that the new president of US stops bullying around and seeks for a better solution than any kind of military action.

DB, please provide current Bush quotes that you consider "bullying around" and any that threaten "any kind of military action".

I haven't seen any like that but I'd like to read them if they are available.

Texace, mission tracks are almost always flown on autopilot coupled to the Nav system. You pretty much have to do it that way in order to get reliable position information to validate the "take" on the mission.

I'm wagering the EP-3 came to a programmed turn point and the fighter hit it as the a/p turned. I could be wrong, but this is what I suspect.

Most autopilots turn at a max of 25 degrees of bank at altitude and the roll in is usually a bit less than standard rate (3 degrees per second). So, figure an 7-8 second roll in to the max bank for the turn.
Not exactly sudden or real steep, is it?

Could have been totally different however, not enough info yet. But this would be pretty much "standard operating procedure".


Daff, the point is US trade is usually a very benficial deal for most of our trading partners and that's an understatement.  

Cuba would be MUCH better off if we would trade with them. So would China. Hope they think about that.  


Dowding: Be careful, Mr. Bush, the whole world is watching.

What, no advice for the CHINESE?

Jeez, as IF this is OUR fault.

C'mon Dowding, what has Bush said or done so far that you consider inflammatory or dangerous?
 

[funked]

Toad you are assuming the 10 Red missiles will be launched in time.  I'm pretty sure the pre-emptive strike by the B-2's will slow them down.

If the pilot's good, see, I mean, if he's really... sharp, he can barrel that baby in so low, you oughtta see it sometime, it's a sight. A big plane like a B-2. VRROOM! There's jet exhaust, fryin' chickens in the barnyard.

We are rapidly approaching a moment of truth both for ourselves as human beings and for the life of our nation. Now, truth is not always a pleasant thing. But it is necessary now to make a choice, to choose between two admittedly regrettable, but nevertheless *distinguishable*, postwar environments: one where you got twenty million people killed, and the other where you got a hundred and fifty million people killed.

I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed. But I do say no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops. Uh, depending on the breaks.

[Udie]

 Who said anything about nuking china?  Not that I'd worry about them hitting us, but we have alot of allies around the world that they could hit.  BUT how do you think Russia would react if we nuked their neighbor?  They'd probobly nuke us in return.  

 I have to say though, I would love to see a nice round bullet hole open up in the Chinese presidents forehead.  It would be great if it could happen on tv too.  Putkin for that matter too.  These people are trying to start up the cold war again, and doing a very fine job of it too.

 At the very least ALL trade should stop with china immediately.  This would hurt some US companies, but as far as I'm concerned they deserve it for getting in bed with China in the first place.  Those people have done nothing but rob our technology and copyrights for YEARS and our governments have done nothing to stop them accept give them most favorite nation trade status.  It's just plain roadkill and it needs to stop yesterday.

 I wonder if these amazinhunks remember the AVG?

Udie

[pzvg]

Quit playing stupid people, The Chinese say spy plane, CNN starts using that 'cuz it's good media (potato peelin vultures) And pretty soon folks forget a single important fact.
It isn't a spy plane, It isn't all black with no distinguishing insignia, The crew is not dressed in nondescript commercially available flight suits.
The aircraft in question is clearly identified as belonging to the US military, it's crew are in uniform and all carry military ID's. Go look up the definition of spy, and not in Webster's.
Hint, It came from Geneva.
Also International Law, which being Commies the Chinese have interpeted rather oddly, states that is a crime against humanity to refuse an aircraft in distress permission to land, even if the aircraft makes no request at the time of landing.
And FYI, Most pilot's I knew in the military would try to save the aircraft unless instructed otherwise, This is real life not AH, the damn thing costs a sh#ton.
The Chinese are playing at their favorite game, brinksmanship.
For their sake, I hoped they didn't make a major mistake.
My opinion of China's ability to win a conflict against the US remains at an all time low, We aren't talking the bush league anymore with everyone stepping soft to avoid crossing the political line, this would be a straight up fight, the kind America can take the gloves off, You know, the kind we tend to win.
And Toad made a good point up there, The Chinese version of MARSA must have the line, "Unless it belongs to Capitalist American pigs"

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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"

[Eagler]

 

Originally posted by pzvg:
Also International Law, which being Commies the Chinese have interpreted rather oddly, states that is a

crime against humanity

to refuse an aircraft in distress permission to land, even if the aircraft makes no request at the time of landing."

SOP for Chinese leadership isn't?
State sanctified abortion, grinding students into asphalt with tanks... they don't put the same value on human life as most "civilized" countries do.

Eagler

[jato757]

the wasy i see it, they may as well have shot the plane down, and what kind of idot runs his small fighter into a plane 4 or 5 times its size, china land or not it seems like a act of war, they forced a unarmed plane to land in now, and at the time unfriendly territory, i say send a 8 man team, with some guns in a C-130 and get em, and take the plane, or blow it up. btw did that blind, nitwit, discrace of a pilot crash after hiting our plane?  
and they wonder why 52% of americans think there enimies
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[This message has been edited by jato757 (edited 04-03-2001).]

[mx22]

jato757,

Think before you say something, unless you want to see some dead Americans being added to an already embarassing situation for BOTH nations.

mx22

[MrBill]

"Good evening Dr. Falkner ..... would you like to play a game?"  

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OhNooo
smile awhile