Author Topic: La-7 vs P-51 fought in r/l? (Read 5469 times)

1K3 · « **on:** October 05, 2005, 01:17:32 AM »

I don't have the link anymore and I dont remember the time/place it happenned but i remember that P-51s mis-identified the La-7s as 190s. The La's attacked back and Kozhedub (highest scoring VVS ace) shot down some P-51s.

Bruno · « **Reply #1 on:** October 05, 2005, 01:52:32 AM »

Kutscha (MiloMorai) posted this question over on TOCH.

See here:

Kozhedub and P-51s

Tilt · « **Reply #2 on:** October 05, 2005, 07:53:35 AM »

I am somewhat sceptical re sudden revelations some 50 years after the event.

Even more so when this "gun camera film" is purported to come from Kozhedubs La7. If so where are all the countless hours of other gun camera film that must have been taken.

51's attacking La5fn's of the Czech regiment are a matter of record.

The 21 czech La5FN's were operating behind German lines out of secret fields.... the 51's (escorting buffs) had no reason to think Soviet allies were anywhere in the area.

I think the La5FN's basically got bounced...I need to check records but I do not believe the la5FN's returned any fire.

As mentioned on the other site..... the confrontation between Yaks and P38's over Yugoslavia is well documented by both sides.

Boroda · « **Reply #3 on:** October 05, 2005, 10:04:38 AM »

The link to the story and guncam pics at 12oclockhigh doesn't work.

I have read this story in Nikolay Bodrikhin's "Stalin's falcons". There were the guncam pictures also. Kozhedub's son gave guncam film to author, and said that after developing the film Kozhedub's regiment political officer gave it to him, saying "Don't show it to anyone!".

One of the P-51 pilots survived and landed into Soviet zone, he was a huge black man, and said that they were shot down by "red-nosed 190s". They probably had no chance to see Red stars on wings...

Angus · « **Reply #4 on:** October 05, 2005, 10:13:42 AM »

Are any of the old Soviet aces still alive?
Anyway have been looking for links and stories from them.
Now what was his name - Polyshkrin or something like that (Spelling definately wrong),- anyway, that guy I'd like to know more about.

Tilt · « **Reply #5 on:** October 05, 2005, 10:25:36 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Angus
- Polyshkrin or something like that (Spelling definately wrong),- anyway, that guy I'd like to know more about.

I believe he had a biography written.....in Russian..... I would love to read an English translation.

He was far more interesting than Kozhedub.

I have an article which was an interview with Kozhedub where he states that he should have been credited with more like a 100 kills. He was not a modest man IMO.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #6 on:** October 05, 2005, 10:36:10 AM »

I think the incident some are describing over on that other board is the one that took place March 18, 1945 when the 359th FG in their 51s bounced some Yak 9s and LA5s over an airfield that the US pilots still understood to be German when in fact the Russians had recently occupied it. They initially thought the LA5s were 190s and then the Yaks started shooting so the fight was on until identities could be confirmed.

No Mustangs lost and they claimed 9 planes shot down in the air and two on the ground, mostly Yak 9s. The airfield was at Zackerick, north of Kustrin,Germany.

The P38 incident was November 7, 1944 when Lightnings of the 82nd FG shot up a Russian convoy in Yugoslavia and were bounced by Yaks. 3 P38s down and 3 Yaks down.

Tilt · « **Reply #7 on:** October 05, 2005, 10:42:48 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Guppy35

The P38 incident was November 7, 1944 when Lightnings of the 82nd FG shot up a Russian convoy in Yugoslavia and were bounced by Yaks. 3 P38s down and 3 Yaks down.

Yaks climbed to the 38's which were stacked at 3 sets of altitude IIRC.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 05, 2005, 10:49:27 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tilt
Yaks climbed to the 38's which were stacked at 3 sets of altitude IIRC.

OK bad choice of word

The Yaks came to the defense of the convoy and "attacked" the 38s. The 38s started it all by shooting up the Russian convoy by mistake.

Boroda · « **Reply #9 on:** October 05, 2005, 11:02:42 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tilt
I believe he had a biography written.....in Russian..... I would love to read an English translation.

He was far more interesting than Kozhedub.

Red Ant worked on translation of Pokryshkin's book. I don't know how the things are going now, it was maybe 5 years ago.

Quote

Originally posted by Tilt
I have an article which was an interview with Kozhedub where he states that he should have been credited with more like a 100 kills. He was not a modest man IMO.

Kozhedub died in 1991, and I don't know if he gave any serious interviews.

Soviet aces scores are usually lower then actual achievements. Pokryshkin's first 15 kills were "lost" when his regiment staff burned all the papers before retreat in 1941. His actual score must be something like 77 kills.

Kozhedub was not a tactic, but a "technical" dogfighter, relying on his skills and superiour airplane control.

There are legends that he scored at least 5 kills in Korea, where he was a CO of 176th GvIAP, and was prohibited to make combat flights...

Boroda · « **Reply #10 on:** October 05, 2005, 11:09:08 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Angus
Are any of the old Soviet aces still alive?
Anyway have been looking for links and stories from them.
Now what was his name - Polyshkrin or something like that (Spelling definately wrong),- anyway, that guy I'd like to know more about.

We have arranged a meeting with Fedor Fedorovich Arhipenko, 44 kills. Interesting man, very vigorous and talkative, instead of 2 hours we spent 5, and he still wanted to talk to us some more...

Vitaliy Ivanovich Popkov is also a frequent guest at Moscow flightsim events.

There were some links to translations of interviews with Soviet aces, I think they were posted here already. There are some people who interview them about air combat, planes and tactics, some things are real revelations, like the fact that I-16 was not a coffin, and in some cases much better then "modern" fighters.

Boroda · « **Reply #11 on:** October 05, 2005, 11:15:54 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Guppy35
The P38 incident was November 7, 1944 when Lightnings of the 82nd FG shot up a Russian convoy in Yugoslavia and were bounced by Yaks. 3 P38s down and 3 Yaks down.

I have read an official Soviet report on that October Revolution Day accident near Nish. It was quite different from what I have read in popular books. At least Koldunov (top Yak ace, PVO commander in chief in the 80s) didn't score any kills... Let me look for a source...

Boroda · « **Reply #12 on:** October 05, 2005, 11:25:58 AM »

http://forum.sukhoi.ru/showthread.php?t=30333

3 Yaks lost, two pilots killed (one of them was shot down by Soviet AAA). 5 P-38s shot down according to ground observations.

Conclusion is interesting: P-38 has a serious advantage in horisontal maneuvers, Yak-9 is better in vertical.

rshubert · « **Reply #13 on:** October 05, 2005, 11:31:38 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Boroda
We have arranged a meeting with Fedor Fedorovich Arhipenko, 44 kills. Interesting man, very vigorous and talkative, instead of 2 hours we spent 5, and he still wanted to talk to us some more...

Vitaliy Ivanovich Popkov is also a frequent guest at Moscow flightsim events.

There were some links to translations of interviews with Soviet aces, I think they were posted here already. There are some people who interview them about air combat, planes and tactics, some things are real revelations, like the fact that I-16 was not a coffin, and in some cases much better then "modern" fighters.

Perhaps you should consider getting some of that stuff published, boroda. There is a market for first-hand accounts in publications such as WINGS, AIRPOWER, and AVIATION HISTORY. Those guys are howling for new material, and frankly US coverage of Soviet pilots and planes has suffered from the former political situation and language issues.

regards,

shubie

Fencer51 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 05, 2005, 11:50:58 AM »

There was a great article about the 359th FG's fight with the Russians in the first issue of some aviation magazine a few years ago. It had a B-2 on the cover. Think it was a French publication and it folded (probably after featuring an article on the Luftwaffe). I will see if I can find it when I get home tonight.

I was at the Champlin Museum in Arizona in 1992. There was a really well done artwork of the P-38s attacking the Russian convoy with the Yaks bouncing them. I was unaware of the incident until then.

Wonder what happened to all the art when the museum closed down.

Cheers,